Hybrid cars are a good start.

Great info on the rebates, thank you.

My next car will certainly be a hybrid. A Prius goes 800 miles before refueling and is light on emissions, not to mention the added bonus of tax benefits and driving alone in the carpool lane. But forget the immediate economic benefits. More hybrids in American garages means less pressure on us in the Middle East. Less pressure to maintain stability in Iraq, less pressure to deal with Iran on its terms, and less pressure to kowtow to the Saudi sheiks.

So much upside in one little car. Sign me up.

After years of driving around in a gas guzzling Jeep, I sold my SUV and bought a hybrid - - a Toyota Prius to be specific. Not only does it save me so much on gas, but I'm doing something good for the environment, which makes me happy.

I give some credit to Citizen Hunter for assisting me my purchase of a hybrid. Had I not been so informed about the environmental and tax benefits of driving a hybrid, I may never have purchased one.

Thanks Citizen Hunter!!

Hybrids are a great concept and all, but my goodness, the Prius is an absolutely hideous automobile.

Saving the environment gives me a great feeling and all, but if I'm in an accident in a Prius, I probably won't survive. I'd rather survive an accident.

As far as the Prius goes. Personally, I would never set foot in one or strap myself into one.

In order to save gas, you need to shed weight. In order to shed weight you need to use lighter materials which are usually cheaper. Unless you're using incredibly expensive materials like carbon fiber, magnesium. Last time I checked, the Prius isn't an incredibly expensive car. Makes you wonder what it's made of, doesn't it?

I hate to rain on everyone's Hybrid parade, but if you're driving a 2,975lb. economy car made of cheaper lightweight materials like the Prius, the odds are not in your favor in an accident.

What's more important to you: saving a few trees, or being alive? If you choose the latter, you might want to wait until they actually make bigger cars as Hybrids.

Physics wins every time.

In the meantime folks, cross your fingers and hope that some gas-guzzling SUV doesn't turn your beloved hybrid into a pile of plastic. At least not while you're in it.

Maybe it might benefit us long term if you looked at a vehicle that used E-85 rather than the Hybrids as there are some long term effects that have not been spoken to. Has anyone read up on what we are going to do with the batteries once they are not in working condition? Most battery materials are not friendly to the environment. E-85 is a US fuel that with a little cash from Washington could be produced efficiently but of course George is not about to back something his oil drilling buddies cannot make a dime at. Maybe the fact that George does not support the fuel should motivate folks to ask why when gas is going over 3 dollars a gallon, congress has not invested a cent into taking away our oil dependence by promoting E-85.
Ford and GM are may well be the folks putting money into it as it will promote vehicle sales.

Sorry Flavia, but hybrids are an inefficient, temporary, and expensive solution that will not survive in the free market. If nobility of purpose is your thing, go ahead and buy a hybrid, but if you are one of us whose financial means limit such largesse and are driven by more economic motives, the hybrid is the wrong choice. If you expect to save money on gas by buying a more expensive automobile, know this: in order to cover this investment, at the bare minimum you have to drive 20,000 miles a year. If in fact you do do that, evidence suggests that the hybrid won't last very long.
Try just a more efficient automobile. My Honda CRV, for example, gets 30 miles to the gallon on average.

I don't write much here but its annoying to see people (and its always the same ones) be a bunch of naysayers for the sake of naysaying. Someone says "Y", they say "X". Someone says "A" they say "B". They remind me of little kids that never grew up always saying "nuh-uh, your not the boss of me".
Give me a break.

My wife and I are convinced! We are doing our best to help curb the effects of global warming. Unfortunately, we are a couple of years away from purchasing one, but we will definitely choose an electric or hybrid car the next time out.

On a different note (I hope this isn't to Dear Abbyish), we own a second car and it's the dreaded Land Rover Discovery that we refuse to drive, except in an emergency. Here's the dilemma, we no longer need it and would love to JUNK it forever to keep it off the road, however, we can't afford to do that. Donating it to charity is not an option since most non-profits will put it back in operation. I thought about changing the V8 engine into a bio-fuel type engine, but that is too expensive. Do you know of any service or entity that will reasonably compensate us for this petrol monster and destroy it once and for all, while using the metal and other parts for recycling?

I'll be forever in your debt if you can help me with a solution to our dilemma.

I bought the first Civic hybrid in '03, and the redesigned Civic ('06) in Dec. of '05, I don't need any convincing, but thank you so much for your efforts to convince others.

It's a start, but if you mostly do long-distance driving, the battery is
taken out of the picture and your mileage will not be that much better.

Also, increasing the standards by 2016 is WAY too late.

It would be better to force the entire Congress to see Gore's "An
Inconvenient Truth." We need action NOW. I'm hoping that as enough younger people see it, they will DEMAND action, since it's their futures
that will be most impacted by the selfish behavior or oil-owned politicians.

I like you on the MSNBC talk shows; be sure to stand up to the Republicans spewing talking points that you will encounter before
November. Do not get intimidated by their attacks. Can't believe the DCCC pulled the effective, hard-hitting ad with the flag-draped coffins due to the entirely predictable Repug demands. Spineless behavior will get us nowhere. These people are fascist thugs. They have to be stood
up to!!

Great point on seeing the movie, I could not agree more. Below is the blog I wrote about it. You guys, don't forget to visit the action center and see what action items you have missed in case you did not check in every day, which I hope is not the case!:)

Go See 'An Inconvenient Truth'
It appears that the truth about Global Warming is indeed far too inconvenient for President Bush. He wants to "quit the debate about whether greenhouse gases are caused by mankind or natural causes." Not sure how he plans on working towards a solution when he won't acknowledge our role in creating the problem. Recognizing that is essential if Citizen Hunters are going to be spurred to take action. While President Bush continues to ignore the consensus in the scientific community, NASA and even his own EPA, Citizen Hunters must not.

Al Gore's new documentary, "An Inconvenient Truth," shows in such an accessible way the implications of global warming. It dispels the myths and shows us what we can do to make a difference.

It's time for us as a nation to look the science behind global warming squarely in the face and stop making excuses.

The World Health Organization estimates that 160,000 people die every year from side effects of global warming ranging from malaria to malnutrition. And what's worse, scientists say those numbers could almost double by 2020, children and the elderly being most at risk. When you think about that, it's easy to see why Al Gore talks about global warming as a moral issue.

And therein lies the solution for a change and the reason why seeing this movie is so important. I know that once Citizen Hunters know the truth they will lead the way. Americans have always shown the capacity to see important issues in their ethical context, even from the very beginning. Slavery was an issue in the Revolutionary War, long before the Civil War tore us apart. It took time for our government to catch up with the moral judgment of the people, but it eventually happened.

But how long will it take for us to see global warming in the same way? We don't have much time, so get started today in doing your part.

Pollution, heat waves, more violent hurricanes, weather patterns, flooding, disease - we already see the effects, and they will only get worse.

The cost of doing nothing now will be far too great to bear.

"An Inconvenient Truth" is a must see movie!

Go watch the trailer, get informed, pledge to see the film, get others to do the same and take action.

UPDATE 6/16: Gore will train 1,000 people to give the slide presentation you see in the film to help stop global warming.

Still have not seen the movie, I know I am in trouble! I am planing to though. The advice on taking the stuff out of the back of the car is a good idea. I always have all my sons hockey equipment and such in there and could certainly take it out. Another thing I do is to really plan grocery runs and other things so I do them all at once as opposed to making tons of trips using more gas. Not driving 80 is another way to save on gas, plus it is safer!

I wish I could make my truck lighter, but I can't. What I do is travel only when necessary, or bunch my errands into one big trip. Another thing I do is instead of driving into all the way into work, I cut the drive in half and take the ferry across the river. This cuts my fuel bill in half, my emissions in half, and the time spent traveling by 2/3. It's the little things that make a difference. Good to see others are joining the good fight. Still need to see an Inconvenient Truth. If you haven't seen it yet, don't go alone. Take a friend, and carpool.

Some facts for all you haters out there:
Morgan, the NHTSB crash test all cars sold in the US. The 2006 Prius got 4/5 start. IIHS also crash tested the 2006 Prius and gave it it's highest grade in all categories. So it's no less safe than any other non-suv on the road.

Andriu, nobility of purpose is a market force for some people with excess capital just as conspicuous consumption is a market force for some people. Also, the MSRP for your 30mpg Honda CR-V is $20-25k while the MSRP of the 50mpg Prius, without rebates, is $21k. So it doesn't really matter how far you drive it, you're saving money on gas regardless vs. the CR-V.

From an environmental point of view, hybrids may not always be the way to go.

I found an interesting study that calculates that total energy cost per mile based on a lot of variables such as "plant to dealer fuel costs, employee driving distances, electricity usage per pound of material used in each vehicle"

The study is found here...
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

Here's a little sample from the study...

"For example, the Honda Accord Hybrid has an Energy Cost per Mile of $3.29 while the conventional Honda Accord is $2.18. Put simply, over the “Dust to Dust” lifetime of the Accord Hybrid, it will require about 50 percent more energy than the non-hybrid version.

One of the reasons hybrids cost more than non-hybrids is the manufacture, replacement and disposal of such items as batteries, electric motors (in addition to the conventional engine), lighter weight materials and complexity of the power package."

Personally, I would not buy a hybrid because I just don't drive enough (<2K mile/yr) to spend the extra money.

If your commute is less than, say, 25mi and you do a lot of city driving, hybrids make sense. Note that their EPA ratings are "backwards" - city mileage is higher than highway.

Toyota now offers a number of hybrids, namely the Camry and Highlander SUV (along with their Lexus counterparts), which get better mileage and performance than their conventional counterparts.

Likewise, Honda offers hybrid Civic and Accord, but they're tuned more for performance than economy (even though compared to a conventional car with equal performance, they still have some efficency gains).

If your commute is longer than 25mi and you don't do a lot of stop-and-go driving, a diesel would be a better bet. Mercedes has the E320 and VW still has the Jetta and New Beetle, though California's emissions requirements won't permit any of the other great european diesels to be sold here (as goes the 5 CARB states, so goes the union :( ).

I got an old skool Benz 300SDL, couldn't be happier, 29mpg overall and now that summer's here diesel is cheaper than gas...

Otis' 300SDL is good for another 300,000 miles. Long after those Prius' will have been turned into Tupperware containers and AA batteries.

Ya'll have done a heck of a sale job, I have even been quoting these numbers to my co-workers and they are taking notice.

Poor "AnnoyedCanuck's" brain must function at the intellectual equivalent of
buzzard vomit. Except for his point that hybrids cost more than some gas
only vehicles, everything else he said is factually wrong. I don't wish a
debate with avian excretment, but, I will make a simple statement; my hybrid
gets a minimum of 10-20% better gas mileage than any non-hybrid, mass produced automobile made today. Do the math!

I sense there will soon be a seismic shift in the political landscape as the
prophecy of Al Gore's positions on global warming, Iraq war, etc. become
obvious to the majority of people with an IQ above plant life. I hate to use
the word "messiah" lightly, but I think that's a potential and we are obviously in situation that really needs one.

When the opportunity arose to buy a hybrid back in '03, the "tinny" sound of the doors and trunk closing on both the Prius and Civic hybrid, made my choice of the TDI Golf a lot easier.
Over the last 6 months i have switched to the 20% biodiesal mix, and still get 42-44 mpg in the city and 47 on the road.
I do not regret my decision and as biodiesal becomes more and more mainstream, the savings to the environment will continue to make my decision the best in the long run and to my bank account. The hybrid choice is now a distant 2nd best for milage and the economy.

Why the Hybrid is Better Than Sex:

1. No cuddling required after you "get there".
2. No dinner and flowers needed to "go all the way".
3. "Pulling into the garage" isn't illegal in 80 countries.
4. Bill O'Reilly will never call you to loofah your Prius.
5. ...or maybe he will you freaks.
6. Getting a "flat" isn't the end of the world.
7. Try dialing OnStar for erectile dysfunction.

Seriously, after seeing the mileage numbers Flavia posted it'll be hard to say no to the hybrid. (No Pun Intended)

Hybrids are one possibility, here's another.

I drive a 1983 Mercedes 240D, equipped with a 2.4 liter diesel engine & 4 speed manual transmission.

Advantages:

The car gets over 30 mpg.

When kept is a good state of tune, the car is not a heavy polluter.

Preserving the old car keeps 3400 pounds of junk out of a junkyard.

Noone had to make a huge lead-acid battery for my car (lead that will eventually end up,,, Hybrids have this)

The car will happily drink Biodiesel.

The car can be easily modified to drink used cooking oil.

Think it over - there's more to life than hybrids,

Gil

Instead of a hybrid car, I started walking on April 7th and have only put 525 miles on my car. I found out I used it for a lot of short trips and just got tested and my Cholesterol was lowered by 13% and I dont have to take medicine. I'm just hoping I can keep up the walking in the winter.

Bill Maher’s book, “If You Drive Alone, You Drive with Bin Laden” convinced me to take my friends along in my new Camry Hybrid. It is fuel efficient (40 MPG), blissfully quiet, easy to drive and is quite comfortable, even on long drives. This would make a fine first car.

Two years ago I wrote a column called Face the Heat no More Excuses, you can find it on Citizen Hunter. It was about global warming and I started it by asking what would Jesus drive? As a person of faith I have always seen a big connection between caring about our environment and practicing my faith--the need to protect and preserve God's creation.

I was happy when I saw Al Gore discuss the Climate Crisis in terms of a moral problem in an Inconvenient Truth, as I believe it is.

Many people of faith and religious leaders have long been on the forefront of environmental causes, but I guess portraying environmentalists as tye-dye Birkenstock wearing tree huggers is just easier. The problem is, it just isn't accurate. Environmentalists come in all shapes and sizes and are far from a marginal group. Truth is, if you're not a member of this group you are the one on the fringe.

Anyway, getting to what I saw in the paper this weekend. ThE Bishop of London said it is sinful for people to contribute to climate change by driving a “gas-guzzling” car or failing to use energy-saving measures.
It was reported that they will encourage vicars to preach more green sermons and warn congregations that it is now a moral obligation for Christians to lead eco-friendly lifestyles.

I got the numbers from the Bush adm. EPA (not sure who would be more of an expert) and saw them quoted in numerous articles on top of that. I am sure there is dispute and it varies depending on what type of driving one does. It would be helpful if you could cite the numbers you feel are more reflective and where you got them from and then we can all factor that in.

There are also plenty of links to my piece so you can go explore the comparisons yourself--no need to take my word for it, that is why I put those things up.

I would never claim to be an authority on the subject, but I certainly don't think that one ought not discuss things because they are not a scientist--quite silly indeed.

I would love to learn more about the potential toxins, that is indeed troubling if true and did not come across any such information when reading the studies on the hybrids. Please do post that info as it would be very helpful.

"If you have never (FILL IN BLANK) and is not passionate about (FILL IN BLANK), you are not qualified to speak on (FILL IN BLANK)."

Let's test this logic:
(Remember "Mad-Libs" in grade school?):

If I have never (EATEN A BEET), and is not passionate about (EATING BEETS), then I am not qualified to speak on (EATING BEETS).

I don't think your statement as to why Flavia cannot speak about cars passes my Mad-Lib test. I did a research paper I am still very proud of on beets in HS and I can speak about them at length. I have never eaten one, nor do I have a passion about them. I just might eat one today, I don't know.

As for her passion: she may or may not be passionate about cars. I have no idea. It seems to me that someone who would take the time to write about them in any form has to have some degree of passion either negatively or positively about cars, or the pollution they produce, or at least about the people that pollution affects.

The most important thing I want to add is that we do not have to be experts to discuss an issue of importance. For if we did, then when is it the right time to discuss anything? Shall we only have discussions and debates among academics? Should citizens be reduced to spectators? Is the science so advanced that we could not possibly understand? Learn? Form an opinion? Voice our opinion? One doesn't have to be an expert on the topic to be engaged, but to be engaged is to start the process of learning, and by learning, form an opinion. This is the process of CH.

I think that the gist of this whole exchange is that we are making a positive move in the right direction. Will we ever solve the problem of pollution? Or worse, citizen apathy? Beets me, but at least Flavia and CH'ers are trying.

"Toxins" in regard to hybrids has entirely to do with what you will do when it comes time to recycle the car, mainly the batteries. It has nothing to do with daily operation -- hybrids have lower emissions profiles than gasoline powered cars. As for diesel, the writer above apparently has never heard of SOOT, a byproduct of all currently available diesels. There are new diesel emission standards arriving next year, but their arrival is forcing some diesel cars off the market, including nearly all diesel VWs and the diesel Jeep Liberty.

FRom http://www.hybridcars.com/faq.html#battery

How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker.

Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.

There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.

It is a smallish world. I hope this stuff is not just circulating among the choir.

Perhaps you already know of New American Dream: http://www.newdream.org/ The group started on the East Coast, but suggests we act locally. It is now important that we think globally and act locally and globally too.

Several years ago we became aware of unusual changes to our earthly conditions. We observed that the weather patterns in the Galápagos Islands were changing more rapidly than ever before. El Niño makes life difficult for the creatures on the islands, but as late as 1967 it only occurred once every 12 years or so. Now we can expect the El Niño conditions to show up every 3 years or less. As a result, the animal populations have become smaller and the animals themselves are not as robust as they once were. Since extreme environments act as environmental canaries in coalmines, this Pacific phenomenon is a harbinger of bad things for all living creatures if do not take them seriously now.

Here is another link to the Patagonia website that you may find informative: http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/contribution/patagonia.go?assetid=1865

I am impressed by your focus and ambition toward a life friendly world climate. You are doing some great work. How can we increase our productivity from setting one brick at a time to pouring entire foundations?

Flavia, are you kidding me? what experience do you have to speak authoritatively on anything? Can you scan and email us proof that you went to Harvard because your sophmoric babbling indicates otherwise

Pierce, how about you scan and email us proof you're anything but a sad little troll?

Comments here about diesels need to be clarified. Problems with meeting emission standards relate to the sulphur content of diesel fuels currently available in the US, not diesel engines per se. Diesels are already very popular in Europe, where gas prices have been high for years. Most European countries have "city diesel" which has less sulphur than the 500ppm diesel sold in the US.

When diesels burn biodiesel (either the ag version or the converted from used cooking oil version), they have fewer pollutants (and smell much better, too).

Diesels are generally a lot more efficient than gas engines. My 2003 Jetta TDI manual 5-speed averages 44 mpg on mixed driving, and 51 mpg on all highway driving. And the Jetta has always scored well on crash survivalability tests, plus VW offers ESP (electronic anti-skid control) on all Jetta's as an option.

It's nice that there are so many here who care about the environment, but the battery disposal dilemma for hybrids pales in comparison to their impressive mileage, which means less non-renewable energy used, and less air pollution. It doesn't make sense to shun hybrids because they are not a perfect solution.

Thanks for the post Eric. Now I don't feel so bad about having a deisel, but the hybrids are worth taking a look at when its time.

In light of minimal current technology, no electric car - regardless of size - should be getting less than 250 miles per 5 hour charge with more than 150,000 miles between battery replacements.

Any expectations or arguments to the contrary are deceptive and illegitimate from a technological point of view.

The 'Death by a Thousand Cuts' analogy is apt. Most arguments against the electric car are by current automakers and oil imports. A simple truth - most of the geographic United States has no economy but petroleum based products and by products. No less than two thirds of the land area. An electric eliminates much of that economy. Most towns between the Mississippi River border states and the West Coast would have no economic viability - none. The towns in this region largely revolve around gas stations and combustion engine by-products such as repair services.

Discouraging electric cars is a political decision - not a technological issue.

Every household in the Northeast Corridor could have an electric car in its driveway within five calendar years. And that car would be the same size as the current vehicle yet outperform the current vehicle. There is no reason a Hummer can not be an electric car - in fact, it's easier to make a Hummer an electric car because of its size.

Performance regardless of size? Zero to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds, probably less than 5 seconds. Top speed 130 mph. Average recharge time 4 hours.

Cost per vehicle would be identical to the current standard cost ranges because of the elimination of maintenance/repair infrastructure by the auto makers - you don't need the tools, mechanics, or support products that a combustion engine demands, the infrastructure is far less.

Current auto makers are pursuing the "Trolley Car" redux - what transpired in Philadelphia from 1930 to 1960 is instructive nationally: How to Kill One Technology in Favor of Another Technology.

It's all relatively simple.

- Flavius

The Hummer Paradox

Most electric cars are small to maximize performance and battery life.

The Hummer is large.

A small car can accommodate one electric battery because of current battery size.

The Hummer can accommodate more than one electric battery because of its size.

Hence, what happens to the performance and economic viability of an Electric Hummer?

For the same price as a current Hummer, you would get a Hummer that out performs a combustion engine Porshe. In fact, in a head to head matchup on a drag strip, the Hummer would win - no contest.

An electric Hummer would cost the same as a combustion Hummer, even with multiple batteries, due to scales of production economy. Once an automaker converts to all electric vehicles, the cost of the batteries will fall like a rock due to large scale ordering and the elimination of maintenance divisions.

Flavius

Flava how you get so Fly ? :):) Why is Tucker acting like he's on MDMA?? I drove a Hybrid once for a report for my degree Earth Science. I liked it except. It scared me getting on the highway ramps. That was 1 yr ago. so, i don't know if they changhed the excel, but I didn't like it all it was really a real risk.
Thanks for your hard news work,
John GOV StOUFFER

I saw AL Gore's movie this past weekend. Very powerful and scary, a def. must see. The second I got home I did as much as I could to reduce my consumption. I took another look at the tips you gave and they are very helpful. CAn't quite do a hybrid yet--need a big car on account of my family and a lot of stuff we have to transport daily, but I will do everything else I can.

I just read your Citizen Hunter post about hybrids...

Don't blame you for not owning a car. I assume you live in the city.

I have two cars. It is about the second one that I write you. It is a 1993
Volkswagen Jetta TDI (turbo diesel), with a manual 5-speed transmission. I
get 44-45 mpg on regular driving (mostly commuting), and 50-51 mpg on
extended highway driving. I can easily go 600 miles on one tank.

I'll admit that it's not the fastest accelerating car I've ever driven, but
it can go as fast as you'll ever need on the interstates. And lately,
diesel has been slightly less expensive than gasoline.

Unfortunately, there are only two companies that sell passenger diesels in
the US: Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz. So they remain much less-heralded
fuel efficient cars than hybrids, but nonetheless worthy of mention in any
story about alternatives to gas guzzlers.

The buzz I hear on hybrids is that you don't recoup their higher purchase
price (than comparable non-hybrid cars) until 50,000 miles, or more. That
all depends on how high gas prices go, but at $3/gallon, it takes a long
time before savings on fuel make up for higher price.

Just thought you'd like to know.

Here is an article (and comments) you might find interesting. David Friedman is a PhD. from UC Davis and has been working on hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles for some time. On the other hand, some of the BW comments are downright disappointing. As a nation, we have to change our thinking and our attitude. Now, the corporate stockholders have the purse strings of change and are blinded by short term bottom line financial gain. Wall Street holds the keys to progress.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jul2006/bw20060728_832470.htm?chan=top+news_top+news

When A Hybrid is not enough

The concept sounds like a no-brainer for the Bay Area and Los Angeles, given the number of gasoline-electric hybrid automobiles on the road

http://www.insidebayarea.com//ci_4127267?source=email

Did you know that there used to be electric
cars? They were only sold in Calif., from 1996-2001. Check out the film, "Who
Killed The Electric Car?". See if it makes you mad. I saw it last weekend in
Wilmington. It's an indie, probably hard to find, but worthwhile if you can.

so informative, thanks to tell us.

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