Deep Sixer

1st off let me apologize for not leaving my email before.

Anyway, I never at any point called for "character assassination." As I said, I'm sure Willie Green is a great person, I see him doing community service all the time. But I'm a Philadelphia 76ers basketball fan, not a Philadelphia 76ers community service fan. Maybe it's different for you because you see these people every day, but all that extra stuff doesn't really matter to me if it doesn't have a positive impact on the 94 feet of basketball court.

Mo Cheeks is making a terrible, terrible mistake playing Green that much. It's not just that he's bad, but he's also someone who takes matters into his own hands way too much. He's shooting the lowest percentage of anyone on the team but Carney (Who I agree, in no way deserves more PT) and yet he's taking the most shots per minute of anybody. Does that make any sense? It's one thing if you're a terrible shooter and you just go stand in the corner and don't shoot very much (See: Raja Bell on the Suns the last two years) it's quite another if you stink and you try to take over the game.

It's not a coincidence that he's had the worst +/- of any regular on the team since his second year in the league (Which is hilarious to me.)

"with Williams and Andre Miller on the floor at the same time, opposing guards will be licking their chops at the prospect of driving to the basket."

Green isn't that good of a defensive player himself, and when you take into consideration how much of a difference there is between Lou and Green everywhere else (Lou's PER is nearly 3 times greater than Willie's) the choice is obvious.

"Despite his recent play, it says here that Williams is still better off the bench, unless of course Miller gets traded."

Haha what are you Zeus?

I've posted here a few times, and I can proudly say I've never ripped Green. I think he's a nice player to have, but I'm saddened he isn't a consistent offensive force. Thus he should be on the bench but should also be the starter by default.

I remember he had a few great games near the end of last year. He has to still have that in him; I'm surprised he hasn't exploded for 25 plus points yet.

The guy I wonder about is Carney. Great athleticism but it hasn't applied to deserving any minutes, let alone starters minutes. At least some of the other players who do get minutes have proven themselves, albeit over a longer period of time. I certainly remember seeing Dalembert getting very little time his first two years...

I'm used to seeing some inconsistent, occasionally exciting, occasionally lackluster basketball on the Sixers. I'm not used to seeing a team that looks so incomplete against better teams. Maybe that's another thing Iverson did, he made a thin bench seem...less thin. I still miss Joe Smith as a guy who could help fill in scoring gaps, by they way.

Here's my issue...if players are not improving every year, who's to blame? the player or the coach...yes Willie is streaky so he should come off the bench....when is Mo gonna be held responsible for not making sure his players improve...the problem is Mo is NOT a good coach, he kinda sucks actually. Might as well start Lou at the 2, cant get any worse and I bet once his body gets used to the consisitent 25-30 a night, he'd easily average 15-17 per game and the offense will look better.

Marc, Are you saying that your not gone to be part of the famed, Philadelphia media. They have a reputation for being brutally honest, take no prisoners jounalism. Character assassins, with loaded pencils. The real problem is you have a terrible job, having to cover this horrible joke of a team. And try nightly to put a positive spin on each game. You may have the toughest job in the city. I do understand your put in an awkward position. Colleges, get the respect of the media to keep it clean,their young,amateurs. Professionals are fair game. We expect honest evaluations from our reporters. Were not asking you to lie.

Marc,

I think you are missing the boat on Willie. When you say he is a streaky shooter off to a bad start, you are implying there is something more there. Au contraire, Willie is giving you what he gives every year-- he is a career- under 40% FG shooter. He can't (or won't) pass, he turns the ball over, he doesn't rebound, he's a slasher who doesn't dribble or finish well or draw fouls, he's a mediocre defender... I could go on and on. The Wages of Wins website just quantifies what is obvious to most people, except apparently you and Mo Cheeks. Willie is the anti-Kobe; he is such a negative on the court that he and Kobe would be an average backcourt together!

While Carney is a disappointment, and certainly hasn't earned more playing time, giving Willie's 30 minutes to some combination of Williams, Carney, Korver and Young seems pretty clear to me. Again, without rancor, I think that Willie may be a great person, but he is not an NBA player. I don't think he should be coming off the bench, I think he should not be on the team.

How do we know Carney is a disappointment? When has he ever been given consistent minutes? He clearly has the athleticism; now the coaching staff needs to develop him. And he plays some defense. Of course he needs some minutes to develop.

And Marc, we may be hard on Willie, but Billy King gave him a ridiculous contract, and Green, out of all the Sixers, is the most underperforming.

On a positive note, I've been pushing for a while now for a little more time for Thad at 3 and Iggy at 2. Thad, Lou and J Smith are playing with energy and guts. Maybe, maybe, Herb Hill will bring something to the table (has to be an improvement over Booth). Add a top 5 draft pick next year and we'll have a nice little nucleus. Just don't let Billy sign some crazy free agent contract.

P.S. Any update on that 6'10" second rounder from Europe they drafted a few years ago?

The thing about the Sixers that most people overlook is the lack of a true 1A option on offence. They tried for years to get away with it being a undersized point guard(We all know how that turned out).That a least gave them a chance to get a constant double team when he drove to the basket. Until the Sixers get another player that you must double all of the other complementary players will struggle. Don't forget either that since the 1990/91 season only 4 hall of fame players have won championships with the exception of the 2003/04 Detroit Pistons. That means if your team didn't have one of these players (Jordan,Olajuwon,O'Neal,Duncan) you don't get a ring. For any of you who want to put Kobe in the mix just remember that O'Neal won a championship without him and the same can't be said for Kobe. That is 16 out of 17 years for those 4 players and the Pistons had to beat O'Neal to get theirs. The difference between an all-star and an all-time player is as wide as an ocean. Let us all hope the Sixers find one of their own or catch lightning in a bottle and win a championship of their own.

My complaint is not that there isn't enough WIP-style criticism of Sixers players. It is that there is scant little critical analysis of how it is the Sixers got to be in the situation they are in and so, by extension, how much confidence to place in the ability of the front office to turn things around.

Don't get me wrong -- I understand sports reporting is not intended to provide the same commentary as politics. And I'm not claiming that there is no critical analysis of the Sixers. Rather, IMO there needs to be a lot more objective analysis and much less cheerleading than there has been.

I live in Japan, so my only link to information about the Sixers is through the on-line media. The national media simply aren't close enough to the team to offer much insight so I rely heavily on the www.phillynews.com. And the analysis there is, IMO, sorely lacking. My impression is that most analysis of what Billy King has accomplished and is trying to accomplish is nothing more than King's own explanation of the situation. We've heard he's trying to build a team like the Pistons -- but there is scant critical analysis of how he's already done in that regard -- it's as though the pre-Iverson trade era never happened. Ronnie Brewer is already playing a significant role for a very good Jazz team. King passed on him to work a deal for Rodney Carney, just to give one quick example. What, then, are we to make of King's aspirations to build a winner in the same manner as the Pistons? (To give another -- Jiri Welsh was drafted over Tayshaun Prince...)

Draft night was a debacle. Yet I have seen scant little explanation of why it is that King turned the last pick in the first round and the #34 overall pick into the 38 (?) and 45 (?) picks. (And cash, of course.) The only explanation we got was the explanation King gave -- he didn't want 3 guaranteed contracts. Why not? Salary cap reasons? If so, how is it that this team -- that was never much more than mediocre and of late has been bad -- got into a situation where there are salary cap problems? There has been little analysis of this nature and too much blind acceptance of King's explanations.

Worse yet are the occassional (and thankfully rare) stories that simply defy logic, such as the story that appeared a few weeks ago, criticizing management for not having given Billy King a contract extension. Stories like this -- which not only refuse to address King's role in the current mess but actually imply he's not really to be blamed -- simply discourage me from even bothering going to the website. As someone above said, I can get that kind of stuff from the Sixers p.r. department.

Christ...

Bottom line, Too much playing time for Willie, too much underperformance. Switch him out, give him less minutes, just give someone else the opportunity and spread out the minutes.

Anyone catch Phil Jasner's article today about the Sixers drafting overseas? Nice article, makes a great point that the Sixers are the SUXers in overseas talent. I still think they should have drafted a foreign player with their 3rd First round pick earlier this year and stocked him overseas for a year, at least we would have had value in lieu of a weak trade and release...

Friggin sixers...

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20071130_Phil_Jasner___Sixers_need_to_do_better_job_netting_overseas_players.html

I love reading the blogs and responses, at least I now know I'm not the only person in the area who cares about the Sixers.

I agree Willie Green is a joke as the starting 2. That means our starting back court is basically unable to hit 3 pointers. I see this every night a team comes in here and kills us with the 3 point shot. Willie makes probably about 25% of his 3 point shots, and Andre Miller couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from 3.

Carney cannot play worse than Green and needs to know the coaches have confidence in him. Carney has so much more upside. He can basically get from one basket to the other in about 5 steps running. If he could shoot we'd be in business. One other person already wrote he has never had consistent mins. He needs Willie's mins for at least 25-30 games this year. If not than this year of losing is wasted since we will go into next year with the same questions about the team

I am not a Billy King hater all the time I think he has done a pretty good job with the draft post Larry Brown, but Greens contract is insane, when he was given that contract he was coming off a knee injury he would have signed a freakin 10 day contract, I am encouraged though that he may have learned his lesson by not signing Iggy to a huge deal. I like Iggy but he is a piece, not a star. He has good qualities but if he wants more than 12 million a year he needs to walk.

I can't agree with Larry more. On a good team, Willie Green gets saddled with a DNP every night. He is just not an NBA player. The only aspect of the game that he excels in is getting shots off.

Is he the only problem with the current Sixers team? Of course not. As a whole, they lack talent and experience. But seeing Willie Green get 30 minutes a night just represents the lack of direction the franchise currently has.

Are they trying to win games? Because if so, playing Willie Green 30 minutes a night is not going to accomplish that goal.

Are they trying to play the younger players to give them experience for the future? Because if so, playing Willie Green 30 minutes a night is not going to accomplish that goal.

Marc - in your 76ers Report today you question whether Carney will even last the season with the Sixers. Do you get the feeling he could be on the trading block at some point? Do other teams in the league think that he has some value? Personally, although I haven't been impressed, I think it's too early to give up on somebody with that much athleticism. He could be another Matt Barnes that for whatever reason the Sixers coaches can't develop and then gets into another system and takes off.

"I can proudly say I've never ripped Green."

I don't know if I'd be proud of that, Jim. As a fan, you have some responsibility to criticize the members of your team who aren't producing... unless you want us to go 0-82. You don't, right?

The reason, Marc, why so many of us rip Willie Green is that his removal from the starting lineup represents step numero uno in making us better. Heck, you mentioned it in this post...

"Could the Sixers do other things such as start Andre Iguodala at the two-guard and give Thaddeus Young more minutes at the three?"

Yes... yes, yes, yes! If not Thaddeus, then possibly Jason... but, yes, we need to move AI to two-guard and get Willie out of there!

Marc, we understand you want to try to keep it positive. We all understand they're going to loose a lot this year, and you have to try to find the upside. And honestly, i didnt think they played badly as a whole against utah, they were simply outclassed. Actually, they've managed to stay with some pretty good teams this year and pull of more november victories than most thought they would(beauty of low expectations, i suppose).

There is a certain frustration, however, in seeing the same guys who have not been cutting it for the last few years continue to eat up the significant minutes. Sure, you dont want to just throw rookies out there to dry if they're getting pasted, but the thing is they arent getting pasted when they're in there. Quite a few times this year they've dug the starters out of a whole, only to see them fall back into it after being yanked.

Sure, if you're trying to showcase those guys for trade i could also see leaving them in there. and if that happens fair enough, but i would hope that by at least the halfway mark we see a shakeup in the lineup. because as you say it's about as likely we'll unload green or sammy as the phils are to unload burrell...so at some point they're going to have to start sitting more. Too bad you cant just make cuts, like the NFL...

Everyone -

Who else is going to take shots? The defense lets Willie take the shots - wouldn't you?

The Sixers are just short good players, specifically up front.

The reason that Green plays is because management doesn't want to ruin Williams or Young by rushing them and having them develop bad habits - they need to earn their minutes. I say good!

Did anyone expect them to be a playoff team this year? Or next year?

Let's rebuild the right way.

Rebuild... by playing guys who have no future with the franchise? Get the young guys on the court so they can learn the NBA game. So what if they lose more than they win... they get the experience, which is so incredibly important for their development. I mean, do you really think it'll crush Thaddeus and Jason mentally if they get significant playing time in a losing season??? I seriously doubt it.

I think the term character assassination is quite a bit too strong.

No one that I've read around these parts has gone after Willie Green or any other player on a personal level. I don't believe that anyone has attacked the effort or the integrity of anyone in the organization.

Has there been criticism? Yes. Have there been people advocating sending Willie Green out of town? Yes. Me included.

It's not that Willie Green is a bad player. He's not. He is an NBA player and not a D-League or Europe level player.

But let's be honest here. He's a 6'4" shooting guard who doesn't do anything extraordinary. He's not a great defender. He's not a point guard (even for a few minutes a night) He's not blessed with extraordinary court sense. He's not a great passer. He's not a standout shooter.

He's a slasher and a scorer with some athleticism in the body of an undersized 2 guard. Especially as a starter. His best role would be as a combo guard off the bench, but I think Lou Williams has that spot locked down.

He's a $2 million player with a $3 to $3.5 million contract. Not horrible, but not a great allocation of resources. He's a ok player off the bench for a good team

The problem is that Willie Green is a COMMON player. Not to exagerrate but you can't swing a dead cat without finding an undersized 2 guard with some athleticism in the league or out of it. Heck...drive around the city and you can find those guys. Not as good as Green obviously (he is a pro for a reason), but you get my point.

So yes...I'd trade Willie Green for the proverbial bag of basketball. Not because he's a bad player, but because he's so very replaceable with someone cheaper and/or better.

Given 1) the Sixers record and 2) the production of Willie Green, why - exactly - would it be a mistake to start Rodney Carney for the next 7-10 games to see exactly what we have there?

For a SG, Carney has good size and length. He clearly possesses some degree of athleticism. It is hard for me to believe that he would be a materially worse defender or shooter than Green.

Between now and next summer, we need to make a decision on who stays on this roster (as we add what looks like a top-5 draft pick - which will probably be a PG/SG, by the way - and as we potentially spend some of our newly-available cap room)...and given the logjam that we have at the 2/3, we need to thin the herd. Give Carney a chance with the 1's...it is hard to imagine that he will be any worse than WG, and perhaps if he realizes that he won't be pulled from the game every time he misses a shot or blows a defensive rotation, he might relax a bit and let some of his skills and abilities flow.

Willie Green IS an NBA player. He's a bench player on a good team. I say a GOOD team. So is Reggie Evans.

Rodney carney as shown little more than nothing thus far, while Ronnie Brewer (starting 2-guard for Utah) was there for the taking. Athletisism is nothing if you don't produce. He's been given minutes to show what he can do. He has no handle, no left hand, no go-to moves, and he always seems to be out of control.

Williams should be getting more time. So should Young and Smith. Herb Hill (low post game) I think will surprise, in time, when he gets back.

Here's one of my major questions: Why are they not trying to run some offense through Jason Smith. They lauded his skill, athletisism, jumpshot and ball handling, yet he's tasked to set screens and pick up the garbage. The coach's job is to utilize the strengths of the players. While he does add energy, imagine if we exploited his skills more. NBA god knows we need a post presence. No need to wait if the skill is already there. To me, the time is now since we are losing so much so early.

Marc,

Maybe you can respond directly to me. What is Steve Mix doing now. I am tying to like the new guy, but I liked Mix better. And what is his daughter who played at Villanova doing now?

George

I feel bad for these guys. I cant even rip Willie. They are just basically not good. King put them in this position and they will suffer as long as they are sixers. Our star player is Andre Iguodala, who to me is an average NBA player. And Andre Miller is a starting point in the NBA. Everyone else would be at the end of the bench or getting very little minutes on an average NBA teams. It is so hard to watch this team. At least when we traded Charles,we got Horny and Tim Perry. What entertainment value do we have other than a Iggy dunk or a Dalembert fade away. Ok, now I have a headache!!

'Character assassinating' is an unfair portrayal of a restless and dwindling fan base. At least the people commenting care... and as part of the few remaining people who pay money to see these guys play, I think we have a right to be annoyed with the on court performance of Willie Green.

You have access to the same stats we do. What WG is giving us now, right at this moment, is exactly what he has given us throughout his career. Statistically, he has shown absolutely zero improvement in any facet of his game. So what is he doing that he deserves the minutes he gets per night, when we can be evaluating everyone else on the bench? Is he going to miraculously flower into different player in the next game?

More to the point, is there a reason to expect this team to be anything but lottery bound? Since the writing on the wall is clear, shouldn't the team evaluate their talent against actual opponents?

Willie Green is an average player at best, and it kills me to see him play, but Carney isn't necessarily a better option.

Neither is an above-average offensive player or defensive player (although Carney has the potential to be).

If we really wanted the best starting line-up, wouldn't Korver be in there. The offense is much better when Kyle is in there (and its not like the defense is much worse). He might prefer to come off the bench, but the team is better with him in there. And if Cheeks is going to start both Evans and Green, our team is going nowhere offensively. At least if Willie is starting, put Jason Smith in there, so we have at least an iota of offense in the starting line-up.

Three games...the difference between picking 12th in the draft and picking first.

Four games...the difference between picking 12th in the draft and picking first.

When we finished 6-4 down the stretch last year, the Blazers were going 3-7, and the Sonics 1-9.

The simple fact is we were not any good the second half of last season, half of the other teams in the NBA were in the tank. While there is something good to say about not tanking last year, how much brighter is the outlook if Durant is playing the 4 now instead of Evans, or if we had Oden recovering on our bench to pair with this year's top 5 pick and whatever quality free agent we bring aboard with our cap space.

Why take two number ones from Denver in the AI deal if we never intended to add "three guaranteed contracts" last year? We couldn't have gotten a future #1 instead?

This is a franchise stuck in the NBA's version of quicksand. The once-a-decade fix was there to be had last year, and we blew it, so now we are stuck with Green, Evans, Sammy D and the gang for the foreseeable future.

Well see Mr Narducci, here is the problem, you and your fellow sixer beat writers (aside from one who i shant mention but he probably doesn't get to go on tv either) don't seem to write honestly about the sixers...In general you avoid criticizing the team, you avoid honest representations of the player.

Have you ever read about Willie Green...outside of philadlephia sports writers, outside of 'bloggers', but people who write for 'reputable organizations' (i mean ESPN is at least as reputable as your paper is it not?).

Willie Green is considered my many non philadlephia sports writers as one of the worst among all NBA players, undeserving of the minutes (or contract) he has...

Billy King is seen as one of the worst GMs around (if you never read bill simmons GM summit, maybe you should, you could get some pointers).

We aren't askiing you to criticize the sixers to be critical, what we ask of beat writers, ALL BEAT WRITERS is to be honest in your writing and realize certain things and not avoid stating facts that seem apparent to almost everyone out there who DOESNT have to worry about getting on comcast sportsnet by insulting the sixers.

You and your fellow brethren at the daily news and inquirer more often than not sound like mouth pieces for the sixers, making excuses, looking for anything positive to say in a disastorous game...

Maybe this is what 'journalism' has become, but if it has, stop calling your self journalists and start calling your self Public RElation specialists, cause that's what most of your articles and blogs read like, and for someone who doesn't live in the philadelphia area and depends on people like you for HONEST coverage of the sixers, it's terribly disappointing when you can't take five minutes to look at any sort of numbers you want to see how bad willie green is, or how reggie evans as a whole is not actually that much of a help cause offensively his skill level is just bad.

If you are interested, I can give you some links to people who aren't dependent on access to the sixers and look at the team with a dispassionate eye...if you want i can present you with my own team statistics that i've been tracking, using my own data and culling varieties of what's available on the web, and i'll show you how even as a 6'1 '2 guard', Louis Williams is the best scoring option on this team

(Here's a hint, run per 40 minute stats, look at the shooting percentages, see how infrequently willie green gets to the line, not just one game, but over his freaking career).

HONEST EVALUATION is what we ask for, not press releases...if i wanted press releases, I'd go to sixers.com

By the way, is this a concerted effort by various Philadelphia sports writers to offend people who offer an opinion (for free) of the various philadelphia sports teams that calls them out for poor performance instead of just cowtowing to the organizations?

First Bill Conlin, now you.

Oh yeah, by the way, Willie Greek isn't streaky he is one of the worst performing players in the NBA and he was given a 5 year contract...and not a single philadlephia beat writer called the sixers to task for giving a dime a dozen player a five year deal when players much better than him even 'specialists' get at most 2 year deals.

Willie Green continuing to get over 30 minutes per game is embarassing and the coach and GM should be held responsible but you keep feeding us the platitudes fed to you by the team.

How do i get such a cushy job?

Well,Well,Well...
PHILLY HASN'T CHANGED SINCE I RELOCATED
2YRS. AGO.
Please MOE,give Williams a shot.This kid can flat out play.I'M here in GA.now and looked at films of him while he attended H.S. He is for real....
I am constantly DEFENDING MY PHILLY TEAMS till i'm red in the face.I would love to see us Win again.
Billy,i was a ball boy for the sixers when Moe came into the league. He use to eat all my chocolate chip cookies, ask World Free about that... YES THIS IS CURLEY TOP...
All i want for X-MAS IS A TRADE.Get rid of SAM,WILLIE,OLLIE,BOOTH,SHAVLIK and the other guy named Louis Amundson.In Return Get Moses,Julius and Bobby...ok lol...
DEAR SNYDER CLAUSE. H E L P...

Here's a thought the Sixers might want to consider. Since the management admits they have a product not up to competing for a championship and are in a rebuilding period just put the tickets on sale until they can offer a team worth the money they want to charge. Cut the ticket and parking and everything else they overcharge for in half. Since they will not even come close to winning half of their games that seems more then fair. Every other business puts products that the public no longer wants on sale. You see it every day on TV and in the papers. The fact that pro sports teams get away with charging full price for an inferior product is a joke.

Here's a thought the Sixers might want to consider. Since the management admits they have a product not up to competing for a championship and are in a rebuilding period just put the tickets on sale until they can offer a team worth the money they want to charge. Cut the ticket and parking and everything else they overcharge for in half. Since they will not even come close to winning half of their games that seems more then fair. Every other business puts products that the public no longer wants on sale. You see it every day on TV and in the papers. The fact that pro sports teams get away with charging full price for an inferior product is a joke.

That's a great idea, except the attendance probably wouldn't change but the sixers would make less money and be less profitable and since they are owned by a publicly traded corporation (as opposed to individual ownership which is always preferred in my opinion) they'd have less money to spend and more than likely get worse and spiral downward.

The price of tickets isn't keeping people away...PEOPLE WILL COME if they win...winning is what matters...all those people who 'hated' iverson near the end of his sixer tenure? They loved him 2001, they went to the games in 2001...and if the sixers were winning they'd be there now as opposed to the ghost town at the wachovia tonight.

What in the world is wrong with Korver?

I think he is the reason that the Sixers are struggling.

He has a good game every 5 games.

Green is consistent as is Miller, Evans, Iguodala and Dalembert.

This is Korvers 4th year and he hasn't matured into a solid and consistent player.

I think they should definitely look to trade him ASAP.

The only thing he can do is shoot free throws.