Deep Sixer

Thnaks for pointing out the effectiveness of the young line-up featuring Williams, Iguodala, Carney, Young, and Smith.

And thanks for pointing out the Mo Cheeks comment that they were getting tired after playing together for 8 minutes.

Which begs the question...

Were they so tired from playing 8 minutes together in the first half that they couldn't start the second half as a unit? Was the halftime break not enough time to give them a collective blow?

The Sixers have too many starters who don't come to play every game.

The Sixers were once again excruciating to watch defending the 3-point shot. It's been well-documented that the breakdowns start with Andre Miller, who can't keep the opposing PG in front of him, but I'm increasingly convinced that Willie Green is a (far) below-average defender as well. His reputation is that he's tough and physical, but I see his man constantly getting wide-open looks (whether from the corner or from the top of the key) or beating him for backdoor layups. Generally, if the other team sets a pick on Willie, he can't get through it and his man scores. From the very beginning of the season when Morris Peterson lit him up for 20 in the first quarter, opposing SG's have been torching the Sixers.

It's no coincidence at all that the Sixers' big runs in this game and in the 2nd quarter of the Celtics game came with the lineup of Williams-Carney-Young-Iguodala on the floor: those are guys who are quick enough to rotate back to shooters. For years and years, even before the 3-point shot, defending the pick-and-roll has been about helping, then rotating. With Miller, Green, and Evans in the starting lineup, the Sixers have 3 players who are too slow to rotate effectively (count Sam too, if his guy is an outside shooter), hence the barrage of open 3-pointers.

The +/- stat is sometimes misleading, but they are very revealing for this game: Miller -20, Green -18, Thad +18, Lou Williams +13.

If there's anything encouraging, it's that Coach Cheeks finally started Thad in the 2nd half at PF (something I've been calling for for weeks now). Unlike others on this board, I think PF is the perfect position for him right now, because he doesn't handle the ball well enough to play SF.

Hopefully, Cheeks will bite the bullet and start Carney ahead of Green. The Sixers would suffer (a little) offensively, but the one thing Carney does much better than Green is defend (it helps that he's 3 inches taller).

Offensively, I thought the team looked good in stretches (esp. when they were playing good defense), with the one glaring problem again being free throw shooting. 62% is terrible, esp. when Reggie Evans didn't attempt a FT.

They are bad defensively on the perimeter. They need to learn to do the best they can keeping guys in front and if they can't funnel them towards Sammy where the shot blocking help is. Ed has a lot of work to do and I gotta believe he will get started very soon with the Feb. 21 trade deadline approaching.

NBA Franchise Player Survey Results:
http://reclinergm.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/who-would-be-your-nba-franchise-player-survey-says/

I would like to see Carney start at the two,and J.Smith at the four.We need Thad off the bench to take Korvers role of sparkplug.Remember when we traded for VanHorn,and L.Brown kept him down on the low block, I would like to see Mo do the same with J. Smith.Let R.Evans get used to being an energy guy off the bench, which he will be when we become better.

Obie does it again, reminding everyone about how right he was and how wrong BK and this whole Sixers organization was about him and his player evaluations...

I don't remember who it was, Clint or Craig - they made an awesome point a while ago about how close we are talent-wise to the Spurs. Most of their talent is concentrated in their big 3 of TD, Parker and Manu, whereas the Sixers' talent is spread out over more players, with no one except Iggy being really close to that big 3 talent-wise.

What if, instead of focusing on that low-post presence, we try to get our own big 3 of Iggy and two others, and surround them with role players like the Spurs do? This means no Charlie Villanueva, Elton Brand, Pau Gasol, or Josh Smith, players who just wouldn't be big enough for a "Big 3." I know everyone wants something like what the Larry Brown Pistons had, but how often does that kind of team win? Usually, championship cores consist of 2-3 great players. I'll take Michael Redd over any of the above 4 any day. Think about it - Michael Redd/Reggie Evans or Elton Brand/Willie Green?

I liked the talk of going big-time, like getting Amare from Phoenix, that would be exciting. And the best part about having only 2-3 max guys is, it's one way to be both competitive and stay under the cap for years. But we have to be able to let some of our assets go, like Korver, and maybe LouWill in the future. Sweet Lou is good, but if he's making Larry Huges money then he's not worth it.

About those big 3's, look at the better teams in the Western Conference, a lot of them are following that Spurs blueprint of having a core set of max-money superstars and surrounding them with cheap role players. What the East has been doing is taking those Western Conference role players and paying them undeserved max money, and look where it's gotten the conference.

Tell me what's better- build like the Chicago Bulls or go for it all like the Celtics. Any thoughts? I'd like to see a Javaris Crittenton for Andre Miller trade. We are so far away and the Lakers might need another veteran point, along with picking up some veteran help in the front court down the stretch, to make a serious run for a title.

We need a point that can develop over the next two seasons and Lou is a nice player, but he's not a point, he's a nice role player coming off the bench. Carney needs to work on his shooting everyday this summer, I'm not ready to give up on him just yet. It may be time to deal Willie Green. Adding Ike Diogu would be a nice fit on this team, but the Sixers still need a legitimate star.

I don't like what has happened with the Bulls, it's like Nocioni is the star of the team and I don't think they're going to the playoffs; meanwhile the Celtics seem certain to get to the conference finals.

With Stefanski at the helm I had visons of Kobe, Jermaine O'Neal and Kidd in Sixers uniforms next season...oh well back to reality!

Delembert,J.Smith A.Jamison,R.Evans A.Iguadala,T.Young E.Gordon,R.Carney,W.Green A.Miller,L.Williams,K.Weaver [Best case scenerio]?

Ike Diogu is an interesting name, but he's 6'7", even though he's listed at 6'8". Can he defend 4's who are 6'10" and bigger?

suede is right about possibly giving Jason Smith some starts at the 4 (he has to both start stroking the open midrange jumper and posting up more), with Reggie as the "energy guy off the bench". Let's see how Sammy and Smith play together in longer stretches.

Dannie is right, this team is really, really bad with perimeter D. A Charlie Bell or Jarret Jack would help bigtime with that. Either could play with Sweet Lou, letting Lou play at shooting guard while Bell or Jack covers the opposing 2.

The Sixers outscored the Pacers by 18 when Thad was in the game, and by 13 when Sweet Lou was in. They were outscored by 20 when Miller was in, and 18 when Willie was in the game. You can't let a scrub like Kareem Rush score 25.

The young lineup brought this team back and actually gave them the lead. I was a little dumbfounded when Mo stayed with his starters so long in the 3rd quarter when they got buried.

I hope that the bloom is off and that you guys will see Andre Miller for what he really is, a good point guard offensively who can't stay in front of his man on the defensive end. He also cannot spread the floor so teams don't have to play him outside of 16 feet. I just don't see where he is so untouchable. If the right deal comes along, move him.

Jason Smith played one of his best games of the season. I liked those moves where he took one or two dribbles and attacked the rim. It made me think why haven't the coaches been on him to do that from day one. Or even post up, get the ball and either make a quick move or send it back out to a perimeter player. Other teams do this, why can't we?

Just looking forward to Herbert Hill making his debut and next month's trade deadline. Sad to say, but there isn't much else to look forward to. I guess Shav just has a free ride this year. Must be good work if you can get it.

"When asked why this group didn’t stay together longer, coach Maurice Cheeks correctly pointed out that the pace was fast and that the players were getting tired"

Tired my ###.

So now a 20 y/o professional bball player is tired after playing 8 minutes OFF THE BENCH (Jason Smith), to the point that he has to be pulled out. Result = 2-13 Pacers run.

And he is so tired that in the second half he gets 4 minutes of playing time, while the best run we made in the first was with him on the floor and playing a major role in the stretch.

Bring a coach here please.

And don't even get me started on the perimeter defense, Marc is correctly underlining the 36/63 allowed from three in the last three games, I would add that in the 4 (FOUR !!) games with Toronto, Raptors shot 35/71 (freaking 49%), in the two games vs Boston, Celtics shot 24/44 (56%) in the two vs New Orleans, Hornets were 21/40 (53%)... it's fun to play the Sixers, uh?

You see a link? We face the same team from two to four times and we go on making the same identical mistakes... do they watch the tapes, can they MAKE ADJUSTMENTS ?

DO WE HAVE A COACHING STAFF ?????

until the sixers find a center ,who can defend the middle sammy is out of position too much and not strong enough to bang with other center and power forwards,the reason willie green is a second round choice is shown too much one good game three or four bad shooting games hes a bench player who you bring in if he start hitting he stays in if not hes out not a starter and a big guard who can defend is key

until the sixers find a center ,who can defend the middle sammy is out of position too much and not strong enough to bang with other center and power forwards,the reason willie green is a second round choice is shown too much one good game three or four bad shooting games hes a bench player who you bring in if he start hitting he stays in if not hes out not a starter and a big guard who can defend is key

until the sixers find a center ,who can defend the middle sammy is out of position too much and not strong enough to bang with other center and power forwards,the reason willie green is a second round choice is shown too much one good game three or four bad shooting games hes a bench player who you bring in if he start hitting he stays in if not hes out not a starter and a big guard who can defend is key

I hear the Sixers may need to find a center...

you mean? let's ask rocky, LOL

The latest rumor in the on-going shag williams signing…over the weekend shag was spotted working on his jumper in hopes of meeting with eddie stefanski over pierogies and birch beer at B & R pizza. Stay tuned for more updates- I think there may be hope in signing a 10 day contract.

Sixerzguy, that was me answering someones question whether any of our guys could start for the Spurs.

I can't figure out why we are soooo bad defending the three. Whatever happened to the Larry Brown approach, which is to play up on the guy, if he gets past you, funnel him to Sammy. They give way too much help and way too much room on the perimeter. Sammy is a top 10 center (agree or not). He needs more help with the perimeter "D".

Trackboy, Diogu is 6'8" in shoes, which is how everyone is measured in the league. Which is the same height as Elton Brand. I think he is much strong than Brand too. Did you notice our toughest guy (Reggie Evans) couldn't handle him? I'm telling you, he's a player. He's Reggie with nice offensive game. Jermaine O'Neal was rotting on Portland's bench before Indiana saw the potential (watching him in pregame warm-ups, no less) and stole him. We could do the same with Diogu. Listen to me, Ed.

Joe, I think we need production, first. The stardom will come after. Now, if we went and got Amare (without giving up too much), that's the Grand Slam.

A measure of insanity is: "when one keeps making the same mistakes over and over" -- Like choosing not to defend the three!
Marc, your Inq article was right on except I would quibble with you saying the Sixers COULDN'T defend the three. I say they WOULDN'T defend it -- they chose not to! You quoted Dalembert that " we had to give up something".
Oh, OK, the Pacers shoot the three -- that's what they do -- but we're not going to defend it!
I can understand when a team loses because of lesser talent, but it doesn't necessarily take talent to get out and defend the three - it's a strategy
Watch the Sixers as they run back on defense and go past the 3-line, the watch the Pacers stop at the three and shoot, and then the Sixers go running back to guard (too late). Can't they pick up their man (if they have one) at half court?
It's embarrassing!! How many games have they lost (5 or 6?) because of this?
What game is Cheeks and that big staff of coaches watching??
If Cheeks (I like him as a person) loses his job it may be because of this flawed defense.
Marc, can you ask Coach Cheeks if they can try something different?

The kids make watching the games worthwhile, its just too bad we dont see more of them. This is the umpteenth time this season we've watched the starters dig a hole, then get bailed out by the kids only to fall right back into the hole as soon as they get the chance.

On a positive note, seeing Jason Smith come out of his shell yesterday was great. He has great quickness and agility going to the basket - i saw flashes of it early on, but then he started standing back and shooting jumpers. If he can keep this aggressive mindset i'll be a happy man.

Thaddeus definitely needs to hire a personal dribbling coach or something over the summer...someone mentioned that's what keeping him from playing more at 3, and thats a good point. But otherwise his games gives us a lot to hope for.

A quote I found from the L.A. Times this morning. Sorry Brand fans.

--Brand and Maggette will have the chance to opt out of their contracts and become free agents at the end of the season, but Sterling said he's not concerned.

"One, based on my conversation with Elton, he's not going to opt out," said Sterling. "And two, whatever he asks for, I think he deserves. He is our franchise player, we need him. You saw a short time ago we were pretty close to being a special team, and now without him you see how difficult it is."-- L.A. Times

A couple of points..I cant believe that Cheeks cant see what the rest of us is seeing in the need to defend the 3P shot. That must mean that either the players are not listening or he is not getting the msg across to them. Plus defending the three is not that ez. You have to have some athletic ability to man-up away from the basket....something that AMiller, Evans, and Dalembert will have probs doing.

Which kind of brings me back Carney. I'm not ready to give up on him if he decides to focus on playing defence and hitting the boards. If he would focus on those two aspects his value to the team would be enormous. Can somebody get that through his head ? Even Thad knows that the points will come if you do the other things well.

Honestly, this sounds like Korver, Dalembert, Green all over again. The Young guns are the future.
Lou Williams-very nice player a top ten pt guard which he has to play.

Iggy- 3rd Option good team guy.

J. Smith- Solid back up at the 4/5 15 min per gm

"Thad" A 18/10 guy solid player

Carney/ Deer in head lights-sux.

So what do we have.
Williams a stud, Iggy a 12/6/5/4/3 guy-a stat filler, Thad a stud and solid back up in Smith and a scrub in Carney.
Don't get too excited guys.
Sounds alot like Korver(departed) Green(scrub) Dalembert(a body)

Andre Miller is a clever PG who uses shot clock to dribble, maneuver and create his own shot, be it an up-and-under move (using a strong pump fake), a right side post-up or a transition head-down-and-hope-for-a make & foul foray to the hoop. Like Iguodala's, his is a funky game, individualistic, one not easy to predict or assimilate. 36 min. - 16.3 pts., 6.2 assists, 2.7 turnovers, mere 72.6% FS. Occasional nice one-armed howitzer to cutter for layup. Shooting range: 19 ft. Porous man-on-man defense. This player is respectable but expendable. Would Sixers come unglued without him? WITH HIM they're an unproductive mosaic of underdeveloped and/or mismatched parts, 16-26, better than only 6 other NBA teams, a disaster in defending the 3 pt. shot. Where's the risk? Kevin Ollie is around to mentor younger players. Could give KO some minutes; he'd still smartly contribute without fanfare. And should bottom drop out, a high choice would more likely drop in.

As for the hype over Sixers' young, growing stable of athletes: Iguodala, Carney, Williams and Young would make a decent entry for an '08 Beijing relay team but their actual b-ball decisions and skills need considerable improvement. Tomahawk dunks do not a quality NBA player make, though video-friendly and fairly auspicious. Key question: Will time and present coaching do the trick regarding them?

Please, please, please don't bring in Michael Redd. You think our perimeter defense is bad now?

The whole problem with our defense starts at the PG position; Andre Miller is just too slow to defend any PG that has an ability to drive the lane. When the PG penetrates, players have to leave their man and help, which leaves the team suspectible to open shots from the perimeter. It's that simple.

So, I say it again...the Sixers best move is to get a scrappy PG, whose priorities are to (a) run the offense and (b) play lockdown defense. He doesn't necessarily have to be a scorer. Go get a sharpshooter in the draft and use your $$ on a PF. If Elton Brand is not available, then get Josh Smith and try to move Sam for a guy like Gasol. Pretty simple to me.

I'm one of the biggest Sixer fans around....I go to about 35 of the 41 home games each season. Unfortunately though, this team is pretty unwatchable right now; there's not a whole lot of promise on the current roster save Iggy and Thad. Sam's had a great season thus far, but he still doesn't have a back to the basket game. Lou is still very raw, but definitely worth keeping around as a combo guard. Jason Smith will never be more than a 15 mpg bench player. Jettison Rodney Carney. And, for the umpteenth time, trade Andre Miller. Just my opinion.

Loved the comment about Thad Iggy and Carneys possible entrance into the Olympic Relay team.

Now for the last few weeks I have loved watcing the Sixers when they go with their young, fast and extremely athletic lineup. They didn't always produce the way I wanted but I thought they were much more fun to watch. Now with a little more development they are starting to prove that they are now more productive at times than the Starting Lineup. As I hope turns out to be the case I think we should start seeing more and more of this young lineup and that will be a good thing.

What makes Sixers fans think Stefanski is going to make such a difference? Heck look at the Nets. What have they won?

What makes Sixers fans think Stefanski is going to make such a difference? Heck look at the Nets. What have they won?

I like Miller, but his lack of D is killing us. I agree with Marc, Green and Evans would be better served coming off the bench and everybody knows we need a big-man to compliment Sammy, at PF or Center (how do you think Sammy would be playing power forward?).
Looking toward the future, I really like Iggy at SG, and Thad at SF, with Williams and Smith coming off the bench. Sammy is okay, but a little over-paid.
Any chance we could trade any one other than that core (Iggy, Thad, Smith and Williams, assuming we can resign Iggy & Williams in the off-season) in order to get a PG and a big that can both score & defend?
I hope Ed is coming up with better ideas than we are.

"What makes Sixers fans think Stefanski is going to make such a difference? Heck look at the Nets. What have they won?"

* Top to bottom the Nets team he left has far more talent on the roster than Billy K ever put together.
* His first trade was brilliant on so many levels: we gained major cap space while still keeping our biggest trading chip (Miller), and setting Miller's value at a very high comp.
* Hope is all we got.

"His first trade was brilliant on so many levels."

Here we go again. The Korver trade's outcome has yet to be determined, but it looks pretty awful initially. 1) They did not gain so much cap room - $4 million is paltry by NBA standards. Heck, Reggie Evans makes more than Kyle Korver. They got little to nothing in return (a mid to late 1st rd draft pick with a ton of restrictions isn't exactly gold). 2) They dealt away the only pure shooter on the team, who even when he was having a bad run of it made the opposing defense come out and guard him. This opens lanes to the basket, which plays to Iggy and Miller's strengths. It also frees up Sam in the paint.

The Sixers could have achieved $16 - $20 M in 2008 offseason cap space by trading Miller at the deadline and not re-signing Kevin Ollie. Nothing had to be done with Korver; he is a weapon that every team values, especially good teams. Having him as a long-range threat once the Sixers get good would have been a vital piece to the puzzle of improving from competitive to contending.

"Here we go again"
After such an opening you don't do all that much to refute me.

Korver was a marketable piece to turn a paltry (in the NBA, see Reggie Evans, Steven Hunter, et. al.) 6 mil into a use able 10 mil + an additional bargaining chip in the pick. It sets the market for Miller much higher (Miller being a more talented player than Korver). Stefanski is obviously playing it this way with his "I'm not offering YOU Miller, you make ME an offer if you want him" act.

Short term it makes us a worse team, leading towards less wins and a lower pick (we'd all love to be top 5 in the draft, right?)

Furthermore, it opens up minutes of our young guys so Stefanski can evaluate what he has. Lastly, and this may or may not be valid, but it keeps Lou coming off the bench which might lead to smaller contract in the offseason, saving the team cap room.

Korver obviously has value in the league, but his value is higher to a talented team like the Jazz than to a team that will not sniff championship level quality for a few years, best case scenario. This is a long term rehab, and cannot be done overnight. I believe Stefanski's first move sets up all the other moves to come, including Miller.

p.s. find me someone to take Reggie Evans for an expiring contract + first round pick and I take everything back...

I admire the optimism that some of the bloggers feel when talking about the sixers. However, as BK said after the trade and this past summer, this could be rough. They do have nice pieces, I don't deny that. But two things have to happen before we become a good, talented NBA team:

1. If Andre Miller (should I say when) is traded, then we NEED to draft a PG. Other than Boston, does any elite level team not have a talented leader at the point? I'm not talking about a small shooting guard (i.e. Williams) or a good passer, I'm talking about a POINT GUARD.

2. Determine what positions the prominent youngsters (Young and Iguodala) will play in the future. Considering that Dalembert is the 5 for the next 4 years as per his contract, you will need either a 2-guard or a PF. Now, I for one like Williams as a scoring guard, but more of a Ben Gordon-Monta Ellis mix off the bench. But if it is decided that Young is a 3 and Iguodala is a 2, then Young needs to become a better perimeter player in terms of handling and shooting, and Iguodala has to be more consistent from the perimeter (mainly 3-pt shooting). You would also need a low post (not scoring, low-post scoring) PF. If Young is a 4 and Iggy a 3, then you would need to find a perimeter scorer, not a Willie Green, who can be at times but is a liability if anything, but a true threat.

If they can accomplish this within say 3 or 4 years, they can be a force.

The only 2 teams I think would have interest in Evans are ORLANDO and MILWAUKEE.ORLANDO has Foyle and nothing else up front off the bench,MILWAUKEE has 2 finesse P.F.!s,Jialan and Villanueva.Don!t expect a draft pick.Be happy with an expiring contract.

Morty - How does it set the market for Miller higher? They got NOTHING in return for Kyle Korver. A conditional first round pick over the next six years and Gordon Giricik? There are a LOT of good teams that can use a piece like Kyle Korver. We basically dumped him for cap space - the conditional #1 doesn't get you anything in a trade. BK tried to package the Sixers 3 first round draft picks this offseason to move up 7 spots and got nowhere. Why do you need the extra $4M per season once you move Miller and don't re-sign Ollie? They'd have been $15-$20M under the cap anyway. Why dump one of the best outside threats in the league? Christ, both Stefanski and King said that teams inquired more about Korver than anyone else on the team including Miller!! In return, we get garbage? It makes no sense.

And, neither Reggie Evans or Steven Hunter sniff $6M. Evans is at $4.3M per season and Hunter is at $3.6M.

Other than J.Kidd,what other p.g."s in the league play above average defense. Top 5?

Dean, I think you are perhaps underestimating the value of an expiring contract in the modern day NBA. It is a very serious strategic asset.

Trading Korver allowed us to gain financial flexibility we have not had in forever, while still keeping our best asset (Andre Miller who has a shortly expiring contract and is better than Korver, no?).

Miller's value is now higher because we do not "need" to trade him to gain financial flexibility. We can simply wait one year and gain his 10 mil in cap space. Remember what happened when we "needed" to trade Iverson?

Because we don't "need" to trade Miller, we can wait for the right deal from a team that "needs" him, which will get us the best deal. We don't "need" cap space as much now, its gravy.

Perhaps we trade Miller for 5 mil in cap space and a young player we like. Remember when Jermaine O'Neal was stolen from the Blazers for Dale Davis? Iverson from the Sixers for Miller and cap space?

Deron Williams (one of top young PGs in league been to conf. finals), Chauncey Billups (won title), Jason Kidd (been to 2 finals), Derek Fischer (won 3 titles), Tony Parker (won 2 titles).

Catch my drift?

Morty - Why would you wait for the cap space at the end of '09? Plus, you're going to get less next year when other teams know that the Sixers have to trade him. You also mentioned letting him expire without trading him - why would you possibly want to do that? It just pushes back the development process of whomever is going to be the Sixers PG of the future.

Freeing up MAJOR cap space now is the main concern. That could have clearly been achieved by moving Miller to a contender. There was no reason to move Korver, unless you got something back significant other than $4M in cap space. Additionally, Korver's contract was relatively cap friendly for an NBA specialist; Jason Kapono makes roughly $1M more than Korver.

Morty, if Korver made $8M per season, I'd probably be inclined to agree with you. But he doesn't - he makes 50% of that. Korver's contract at the end of the day is 1/15th of the total cap number; clearly, the assets he provides are worth more than that to a team, no matter how bad the record.