Deep Sixer

I have no problem with them making a playoff run IF they add somebody to help. The Artest deal would make sense to me. He won't act up because he's opting out at the end of the year. Plus we wouldn't give up much(Carney,Green,Ollie,Utah's pick) to get him. I DON'T want to see Ed stand pat and just limp into the playoffs!

If we can't get a player to help. Then I say trade Miller and Dalembert. Get young pieces in return(Calderon) and more draft picks. Plus our pick will be higher if we don't make the playoffs.

Joe Doc, for one minute will you put yourself in Toronto's shoes re Calderon? You know TJFord is a big health question mark. You know Calderon is emerging as a top PG. Why would you let him get away?

Stop dreaming about guys that you have no chance of getting...it is the same as saying you want to trade for Dwight Howard...get real will you.

Wow Joe was there a full moon last night or just something you ate, I guess you would like the Sixers to just start over hugh?

The closer to the trade deadline we get, along with the big trades going down are getting the sixers fans a bit antsy. Looking for any kind of move whatsoever. Can't make a deal just to make a deal and the deals have to work for both teams.

"The Artest deal would make sense to me. He won't act up because he's opting out at the end of the year."

Are you kidding? That guy is the biggest head case in the league. No how, no way I go anywhere near him. I sure as heack don't give up a 1st round pick for him.

Trade Miller and Dalembert??!! Joe, Joe, Joe. What are you thinking, dude? It's like you want to make deals just for the sake of saying you did something.

Marc:

Before the trade deadline I want the Sixers to go out and get Gerald Green and Morris Almond. I am pretty sure they can make the numbers work and we have players who can play power forward and 2 guard. Iguodala becomes our 6th man because he is not a better guard than Almond or a better forward than Young. Our starting 5 becomes Young, Dalembert, Gerald Green, Miller and Almond. Off the bench are Iggy and Williams.

Zara:

To continue from the last thread. +/- measures 5 man units, not individual players. I'm, not saying is does not tell a story, just not the whole story of an individual. And I'm not trying to tell you that Sammy and Miller are championship players, either.

However, if you read my earlier posts in the last thread, I do think that if you add one stud PF to the current lineup you would have a playoff team capable of winning a round in the East. And if you improved or replaced Sammy, and added the same PF, I think you are competing for the East Championship. Given continued improvement in Thad and Dre's games of course.

I would replace Miller with a Calderon, or Devin Harris in a heartbeat, but if you don't think Miller has helped this team win at least a handful of extra games this year, I don't know what team you are watching.

raymond, What's it tell you if GGreen can't get playing time in minnesota? He refused to workout against players prior to the draft. He impresses with athleticsm & dunk contests but I suspect can't grasp the NBA game for some reason.

Raymond, back away from the keyboard before your hurt yourself. You can't be serious. You just can't be...Putting Dala on the bench for Gerald Green??? I like Green and Almond is a good prospect, but c'mon!!

Raymond, don't ever make that suggestion again.

If the Artest or Mike Miller trades are there to do, get one of them done. Preferrably Artest, unless you can get Lowry in the Mike Miller deal. Then, I'd do the Memphis deal because Miller takes care of the outside shooting issue and Lowry takes care of the PG issue.

While this team would be NASTY with Artest... like I've been saying, you have to step back and look past this season to see what is the best scenario for the future. The Miller / Lowry deal is the best thing that the Sixers can do going forward.

suede:

I agree with Dean again! It would be a bad decision to bring Dre off the bench while starting Gerald Green!

Zara:

By the way, according to 82games.com, the Sixers are 5 points better when Sammy is on the floor. The team is -5 when Miller is on the court.

What's the difference? Part of it may be that Miller is -48 by way of 88 minutes played with front courts consisting of Korver/ Evans, Smith/ Booth and Smith/ Evans - all a combo of inexperience (Smith), awful shooting (Evans, Booth) and out of position (Korver).

So perhaps you just have to dig deeper into +/- if you actually want to find something.
Morty and Moishe Recommend...

I just want to say that trading for artest would put them over the top for the playoffs. they wouldn`t have to give up their "core" to do it. Artest for green and/or carney and"utahs" pick. Sammy,artest,young,Iggy,and Miller as your starting five.

Ok, Gerald Greene sucks. Talking/wishing about Calderon is a pure waste of time. And if the sixers do make the playoffs{and they will as the 6th seed} they wont be limping in my friend. The Sixers will have the 17th pick in next years draft, chew on that.

The Greek is right about that 6th seed. Think about it: Washington, New Jersey, and Atlanta stand in our way. Neither one of those teams are anything special, we can get that sixth seed. A sixth seed right now would match us up against Orlando, which I think is a winnable contest. How bout no trades? Let's see how much more this team can grow.

The first two games are ones the Sixers should win. It won't surprise me if the winning streak gets to 7.

It also looks right now like the Sixers are the 6th best team in the Eastern conference, although some of the improvement in their stats comes from their recent schedule.

I hate saying this, but the team would be better served by missing the playoffs. They can make them, but probably not get out of the first round, and definitely can't get to or win the conference finals.

Add a stud PF and another Center, and we have a shot at competing. If we can't get them this year, a higher draft pick will help us get that next year.

So unless a major trade comes up, and none of the ones mentioned above come even close to being good trades, the Sixers should consciously try to miss the playoffs.

They will have ample opportunity to loose games in March. There are a lot of games they shouldn't win and there are a few more where they will be on the tail end of a back to back.

I like the team, but I am realistic about where they are. Let these young players develop and keep learning, encourage them to play hard, but don't let Lou Williams or Andre Igoudala or Andre Miller get involved in late-game heroics that will cause us to win an extra 5 or 6 games, because that is all it will take for the Sixers to end up in the playoffs.

Once we do that, we'll be stuck- never getting a good enough draft pick to elevate us to the top, and never enough talent to challenge for a spot.

WE HAVE TO GET A 20-10 Power FORWARD before we can compete in the playoffs. That should be the priority now, and we shouldn't let anything else get in the way of that.

I'm on the fence about dealing for Artest. Sixers fans, keep one thing in mind. There is no guarantee he will opt out of his contract after the season.

Darrel Arthur, Kevin Love, and Tyler Hansbrough might all be available at the 17th pick. Rick, there are no guarantees with a top 5 pick, no warranty. Just think, we picked Young at 12, he might end up being the third best player to come out of that draft. Making it out of the first round would be huge for our young guy's confidence, plus think of the Miller's trade value... I say we go for the sixth seed.

I think it's great if Artest doesn't opt out of the contract. Then, at the end of 2009, we'll have him AND Andre Miller coming off the book for a total value of $17M at the very latest.

If you can get a PG like Lowry in the meantime and focus your draft on the PF position (or via a trade with Andre Miller), then you're still on track with where you want to be in 2 years...A major contender in the East.

Going to the playoffs is fine as long as we do it under our own power (that means no Artest). First of all, the experience would be invaluable for the young core. nuff said on that, really.

Second, some people are worried about being stuck in limbo as far as picks go - Ok its true we wont be picking top 5, but we wouldnt anyway, even if we lost almost every game from here to the end. My response is a young core that gets to the playoffs against all odds is a great draw for free agents. It means you dont necessarily have to blow guys away with offers, which also means you know you're getting guys who care about winning(not just getting paid).

Third, There is every reason in the world to think that what we have now is going to improve with age. The amount of improvement just this year is tangible. Put that together with some pretty good cap space this year And next year if you manage it properly, and we are well on the road to recovery.

Also, i think its great we're having his discussion. In case no one has noticed, the terms have changed a good bit since the beginning of the season. The consensus then was we were in contention for a very high first round even if full effort was given every night. Now we're looking at a possible sixth seed and we're talking about whether they should play possum for a few months in order to get one last bump before becoming an annual playoff team again. Not too bad, considering the only addition was really more of a subtraction...

I don't understand. Do we play sports to lose on purpose? Why would you ask an athlete to tone it down or pull him from a game so that we have A CHANCE to draft someone that we are not sure will help us? Portland can't count on Oden this year. Where the hell is Seattle with two top 5 picks??? They are shopping their 2005 1st round pick right now. The draft is slightly better than a crap shoot for a lot of teams. Just take a look at the lottery picks over the last few years. There are tons of busts. To lose on purpose is just disgraceful to me. There's no guarantee that we will win. I know what we have now is making strides that no one can say that thought would happen. Now you want to undo that, why? It's not like the roster is a bunch of old stiffs. A losing mentality loses more times than not in my opinion.

Its great to see this kind of attitude showing up amongst sixers fans. Hopefully attendance will begin to mirror this optimism. It would be good for the guys to have a full house rocking behind them.

Craig and KM:

Agreed. We are 2-3 major upgrades away from Championship quality. But given our young core, which is really young, I would prefer only 1 of those additions comes from the draft, max, and the other 2 come from free agency and trades.

So given those factors, why wouldn't we want this team to win? Even if we truly tanked, played to lose, we would still only hope to get a marginally better position than last year, and we actually did OK last year at # 12, right? Imagine if BK had traded up like he wanted to take Yi. Would anyone prefer that scenario?

Hugh' I wasn!t ripping Theo, Iwas comparing Sam to him. I thought we were way better with Theo over Dikembe. Morty, I would never bring Iggy off the bench for G.Green. In the words of B.Dinero," ya hurt me a lil bit". If a 3 team trade doesn!t get us a young player, a #1, and cap space than stand pat. Let!s see what happens when the schedule gets tough. Who knows, they may surprise us.

Before anyone rips on BK, look at the core of this team and who put it together. BK made some terrible moves in terms of signing aging players to long term deals, no doubt. His draf choices, however, have been good to very good if you look at the total sample size (starting from 2004 after LB left).

Iguodala - Great pick.
Young - Jury's still out, but looking great.
Carney - Not so good.
Lou Williams (2nd rd) - Great pick.
Kyle Korver (2nd rd) - Great pick.
Willie Green (2nd rd) - Good pick.
Jason Smith (from DaQean Cook) - Jury's still out.
Thabo Sefalosha - Jury's still out, but with Chicago.

With the exception of Carney (should have taken Ronnie Brewer instead), Billy King and his staff's college evaluations were excellent. And, in the last 4 years, they've gotten key contributions from 3 2nd round picks. I don't know a lot of organizations that can state that truism.

Billy King was a lot of things - a poor drafter was not one of them.

Unless we are on the good side of a lopsided deal, I'm happy with the Sixers not making a trade and make a serious playoff push.

I think we need to see how good these guys really are and the only way we can do this is see them perform against good teams who are ready for them.

Is Igoudala worth the money he seems to think? Did Sammy really step up this year? Was Thad a smart draft pick? Let them play 6 games against the Pistons and Celtics and we'll have our answers.

The more I think about it, the more I'm agreeing with Marc that dealing for Artest is pointless. He's another wing player and is a nut case. Would he help this team? Sure. Could he hurt it and the development of its young players? Definitely.

As for the draft. It's loaded top to bottom with power forwards. Arthur I like a lot as he's super athletic, can run the floor well and has a decent array of offensive moves in the post. I think he gets over-shadowed much of the time because Kansas' guards are more featured than their big guys.

Love, I think is over-hyped right now.

Hansborough is 6'7 and won't be a starter at the pro level.

But there are still names like Hendrix and Patterson and DJ White who could develop into really good power forward options in the pros.

I'm also intrigued by the two pf prospects from France. Both are projects but one is just a beast athlete with loads of potential and the other is being compared to Jonathan Bender.

p.s.
Starting Gerald Green over Dala...hah hahahah hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahah!

suede:

I know you weren't talking about Green. For your entertainment, or mine, I'm just pointing out whenever Dean and I can agree, "straight up."

Just like the "old boy network" in the N.F.L. of hiring the same guys over and over, lets not recycle the same players other teams have had and are trying to get rid of. The draft and finding "young players in the league" is the way we should go. Theo, we disagree on Love, but not on the fact we can add 2 [top 8 rotation ] guys this year in the draft.Saw Westbrook last night hold Mayo under 10 pts. Dean, he is a 6!3" version of Lowry.Saw a 6!9" version of G.Davis [ K.Gransberry] Saturday. Both these players are not supposed to go before the 15th pick in the draft.We need to get extra picks for E.S. to work with.Not give them away. At home, recycling is a good thing, not on the court.

Just in Hansbrough is down to 6'5 1/2" and has no post moves. That's for Tuna and his Carolina fan! I hope KLove is 6'8". Not in love with Arthur's intensity but the talent is there.

Just a thought.....

Maybe Ed is mapping out that sign and trade of Iggy this summer. Who are the candidates????

Suede, Westbrook has a better shot than Lowry.

Ok! T address a few:

John- Do your homework! Toronto has over $8 million/yr for next few years committed to TJ Ford. Yes, he's an injury risk, exactly why they won't be able to unload him! They have to resign Delfino in the offseason and Bargnani is going to want big money in the next couple years. They already pay Bosh big money! And they have a young PG in Europe that is supposed to be real good and coming over next year. They need more pieces to get a championship, so why not use Calderon to get one of those pieces. Maybe they won't let him go, but everybody is available for the right deal. I might be wrong with the pieces, but to say "you have no chance of getting" him is a little strong. Now "Superman", we have no chance of getting.

Ray- I would trade ANY player on this team for the right deal. That being said, it would take a whole lot to get Iggy and Thad.

I doubt the Sixers make it to the 6th seed. NJ won't fall off that bad because Harris is pretty good and they added size. Atlanta just got better by getting Bibby. So I only see them getting the 7 at best.

Hansbrough will be the white R.Evans; might avg. 10 rebs. per game but doubt he can average 10 pts. S.F.W., agree on Arthur; you know I loved Plaisted after he kicked N.Carolina an d Memphis!s but earlier in the year. But what has he done lately.I!m a big K.Weaver fan also.T.Gibson disappeared last night again. Love missed a follow and rejumped before T.Gibson and D.Jefferson even got off the floor. His athletism fools you. He is a no brainer if he falls to us.Theo, like Hendrix, but Gransberry is the strongest Iv!e seen. He threw Thabeet down like he was a rag doll and looks more athletic than Hendrix. S.Florida is a big east team. If you get a chance, watch him.

Hansbrough is a good foul shooter and can make a jump shot. Just doesn't post up well and is short for the power forward position. If he was 6'10" he'd be a player.

Regie can do none of the above but I enjoy watching his effort.

If Hansborough were 6'10", he'd be Eric Montross. So moving on...

Haven't seen Gransberry at all this year. I'll make sure to keep an eye out.

Hendrix I like just because he's got all the offensive skills and you know he's willing to put in the work as he's lost a lot of weight this year.

Honestly, if I had my pick, I'd want Donte Greene. The guy is going to be dynamic from the 4 spot in the NBA. Think Tim Thomas, but more aggressive.

Joe Doc:

Agreed with you about Caldedron. Adding that Toronto also has Jamario Moon's contract up as well this offseason. And he's only a rookie of the year candidate. I certainly would not bank on Calderon or Josh Smith or Elton Brand, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand either.

Anything is possible when you have money, and the Sixers will have plenty of money this off season.

sfw:

Reggie Evans will cut you, man.

suede:

I saw a good part of the second half of that USF/ UConn game on Sunday. Gransberry did look good. And Thabeet looked useless.

I just find it hard to project from college to the NBA, being as how the college game is so bad compared to what it used to be. Judging from all the first round flops, NBA scouts have problems projecting as well.

Dean, your right that BK's picks are making him look good. Im not sure that anyone even brought him up today, but since hes up now thats an accurate observation.

The issue now is what do we do with them. No one is really sure how that will play out with Ed, but I for one feel more comfortable with someone else controlling the purse strings (anyone else, really).

I dont expect to have much opinion one way or the other on Big Ed until the end of next year - then we'll have a pretty good idea of how he did this summer and how we're looking for the future. So far he has a point in favor for mandating that the kids be played more, and i know you hate the Korver trade but again it was for a good cause (development). In fact, if it wasn't for the trade and the mandate, we wouldn't even be having this conversation because we still wouldnt know what we had in thaddeus. And besides, we wont really even begin to be able to evaluate the Korver trade until the end of next year either (after we've seen what the guy we get with that space does) - and even then we still need to see what happens with that pick before we know.

Morty, agree about the watered down, no seniors or juniors, college game; Thebeet does intrigue me though; they said saturday it is his 5th year of playing basketball,[ Sammy DDDD!!!!] worst case he could become a 7!3" version of Sam; best case he could become a monster down the defensive end[ if he has a better basketball I.Q. than Sam ]As bad as he looked saturday, I believe he still blocked 8 shots.

Theo, thought Greene was just a jumpshooter, if not I!ll have to check him out.Pictured E.Griffin.

KM:

If ES can match BK's drafting skills, but add the cap management and trade and free agency savvy BK lacked, we will be very happy Sixers fans. ES has already shown me signs he understands the cap and trading markets, but this off season will tell a lot. As will this trading deadline if he chooses to make a move or not.

Nothing earth shattering here, but another good Q&A with ES. Here's my choice for money quote: "A lot of times deals are done in the NBA and you’d say from a fan’s standpoint, ‘well why would they do that,’ and it’s because of financial reasons. We hope that we can benefit from that."

A lot of ATL or Toronto fans might be saying "why did they do that" this summer...

suede,

Greene's game right now is very outside-in. But watching 'Cuse (they seem to be on too much) he really is good in the paint. He's very young and needs to grow into his frame, but I like his potential.

There is no chance of us getting a 6 seed this year - no chance.

Theo, they are on tonight I think, Ill check him out.J,Doc, a risky trade proposal; A.Miller and W.Green for Nene, Kleiza, J.R. Smith and a #1 pick. Nene is a risk, but wonder if his "C " experience is a wakeup call.Can still remember him giving T.Duncan all he could handle in the playoffs.He is only 25!! Kleiza and Smith are both 22and 23 and a #1 pick gives you 4 young pieces to add to your core of players. Smith would be on a 29 game probation, if he works hard and behaves, his talent is starter type.If not ,we have cap space. Don!t know if Denver would do this, but they may be desperate.Before I get berated, look at Nenes numbers and minutes played, he can be productive.

Watching the win streak has been fun, but overall I feel like I can't even remember what it's like to have a high scoring, low-post playing PF. How much fun would that be to add a stud big man to Sammy, Iggy, and A. Miller?

suede:

I just hate to take back a big cap eating contract unless the player is relatively risk free. Nene is not risk free.

It's a slow day so I googled Billy King and came up with this Bill Simmions piece written in BK's voice: "King: I'm also a big fan of giving out absurd contracts that tie up your cap space, for three reasons. First, it drives the fans crazy and gets them talking about the team. Second, your fans won't complain that you aren't making any big moves, simply because you can't make any big moves, your lack of cap space prohibits you from getting quality guys unless they have baggage. And third, when people look back and try to put your reign in some sort of historical context, those salary numbers will jump out even more.

Just look at what I've done in Philly: Since we made the 2001 Finals, I gave Mutombo a $68 million extension even though he could have been, like, 48 years old for all we knew. I gave $35.5 million to Aaron McKie. I gave $29 million to Eric Snow. I gave $18 million to Greg Buckner. I gave $40 million to Kenny Thomas and $25 million to Brian Skinner. I gave $25 million to Kyle Korver and $60 million to Sam Dalembert last summer."

That's quite a list.

....Trade Carney, "Utahs" pick, Willie Green, Ollie (and his expiring contract), etc. for an established Power Forward. Adress the rest in the draft and off-season FA market.

Morty, it would be risky, but he is an intriging player. So is Smith. Just seems E.S. may be a risk taker. [S.Williams?]

Morty,

You're missing the point on +/-.

It's not a "5-man statistic" other than the fact that basketball is a 5-on-5 game. It specifically isolates an individual guy from the rest of his team.

That's what it does.

I already noted in the last post that Dalembert was helping the Sixers on offense, but that is more an indictment of the Sixers' frontcourt than it is a testament to Dalembert's skill.

When he's out you're looking at replacing him with a combination of Evans, Booth, and a raw, late round rookie.

It's hardly surprising that a man making $10M+ a year would play better on offense than them. But when he's in, they're hardly a juggernaut.

The more important +/- stat in his case is defense, which shows that Dalembert isn't nearly the difference maker people make him out to be, particularly given how much he is paid to play that side of the ball.

As for Miller, you continue to just not understand the +/- statistic. It measures VARIANCE. The other 14 guys are still on the team. So all the scrubs he's playing with to lower the team's production are still there when he goes to the bench.

If he was a huge asset on offense, the team's production would take a DIP when he goes out.

It doesn't.

Now, I don't know how much clearer I can make this. I'm not saying he or Dalembert suck.

Again, Calvin Booth sucks.

But if you think the best path to a championship is to pay Dalembert $10M+ to man the middle, and to start a 32 year old, empirically slow point guard who in 9 years in the league has played for 4 teams, made the playoffs 3 times, and never once advanced to the second round (losing 4-1 each time)...

Fine. Whatever. Believe what you want.

I echo any comments about winning as much as possible, you should never ever plan to lose "for who, for what?" - Ricky Waters.

Draft picks are hopes and wishes, if you want to hope and wish let's hope and wish for a playoff spot this year and a better than .500 record.

The Eastern Conference is like MLB, .500 has become acceptable. What a shame!!

You know after watching the all the events of the All-star weekend there were 3 young players I wished the Sixers would have...

Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Al Horford

I'm not saying we need to get these guys, but definitely those types of guys. Especially Al Horford. That guy is going to be a stud in the East for the next decade at the power forward spot.

So my point is while it's great to talk about potentially getting Artest or Kleiza and Nene, they aren't the piece that make us better for the next 10 years. They are lateral moves that make us slightly better right now. We need another corner stone to add to the foundation we already have.

Flat out, we have two holes inn our starting five. We need a guard, be it a point or shooting guard and we need a power forward that has the ability to grab ten defensive boards and shows a nasty array of low post moves to command the double team.

Theo, all three of those players you mentioned were acquired by their teams through high draft picks...For the Sixers to get young promising players like them they will need at least a top ten draft pick.

Not every good player in the NBA was "at least a top ten draft pick". The key is draft well no matter what number you're sitting on.

P.S. Don't stay Anonymous anymore you're home now. LOL

Theo and Anonym., agree, but the problem is we won!t have a top 10 pick unless we add a piece we already have [Iggy, L.Will,] to our pick. wE ARE AT 15 OR 16 now, how far do any of our current pieces move us up?

I guess you had too much Nietzsche (geez, this is a basketball blog) in your head to actually read what I wrote:

"And I'm not trying to tell you that Sammy and Miller are championship players, either."

I'll stop trying to engage you now, "Zarathustra."

suede:

I'd say Lou could move us far up the draft chain. If we are at 15, he could likely get us into the top ten.

Theo, agree about a cornerstone player being needed, but if Iggy, Thad or L.Will. aren!t going to be stars, and we aren!t probably, going to be bad enough in the next 3 years to get a top pick, and there are no free agents worth a big contract than we are worse off than people think .I!M DEPRESSED!!!

Hey fellow bloggers, remember how we talked about backchannel talking as far as free agents and trades , etc. ; how about all this"Miami interested in Brand stuff" on THE WEBSIGHTS, i THOUGHT HE WAS UNDER CONTRACT.

That's speculation from reporters because Riley was interested in signing Brand in 2003 when he was a free agent last.