There continues to be a blog debate concerning the merits of the 76ers winning. It’s something that will be debated from now until the NBA Lottery and likely afterwards.
The position here has always been clear – the Sixers should win as many games as possible and that the only way young players learn how to win is by actually winning.
The opposite view is that winning won’t net the Sixers a blue chipper such as Michael Beasley, Derrick Rose or Kevin Love.
One person who sent a post into the blog actually stated the case for the Sixers winning much better than anything that this writer has written. So here is the post from a person who calls himself tormentedinbeantown
“Last year about this time, the popular view of Golden State was about as low as the Sixers are now. However, thanks to a late season surge, they snuck into the playoffs and brought down the Mavs. Now they are a respectable team, nine games over .500 and on the upswing. Heck, even Chris Webber considers it an attractive destination (and No, I do not want CWebb again!). Fact of the matter is that winning breeds success. It gives you control of your situation. By losing, you’re putting your future in Luck’s hands.”
Well put tormented.
Then there is this post by BoomDrizzle
“There’s a difference between winning a few extra games unexpectedly while still being in the lottery with winning a few extra games unexpectedly and making it to the playoffs. If the Sixers make the playoffs (which, again, I don’t think they will because of a very tough March schedule), it would hopefully be encouraging to the young guys and be a valuable experience.”
Again, well put. It would be a surprise if the Sixers made the postseason. And whether they do or not, the opinion here will be that it’s beneficial to try to win as many games as possible.
Maybe it’s an ideal outlook, that every team should try to win every game. There is no doubt that everybody in the Sixers organization wants to win. It’s now convincing the fans, many who feel more losses and ping-pong balls will be the best way for the Sixers to rebuild.
Some fans would disregard the integrity of the game in order to get a top player. Not here. It would be better to see the Sixers not get the best players, but give their best effort every night in order to win.
Some fans also want the Sixers to try their best, but also hope they lose. It just demonstrates the grip that the lottery has on fans.
Item: A post by Chris Zak read: “I’m all for the Sixers trying to win every game, but I had a thought: You said teams only learn to win by winning – how do you explain the Blazers suddenly becoming a team that knows how to win this season?”
Response: The Blazers are still in the early process of learning how to win. Since they are not even assured a playoff berth in the wild Western Conference, this will be an ongoing process. What has happened here is that second-year players such as Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge have progressed much quicker than expected. While Roy was the rookie of the year last season, few expected him to be an all-star this year. And Aldridge is a future all-star.
Forgotten in their success was that Portland was 5-11 at one point this year. Then the Trail Blazers went on a 13-game win streak and began believing that they could have success instead of listening to pundits who suggested they were too young.
It sounds so simplistic, but Portland realized it could win once it stated winning. Learning how to win is an on the job process. And with the expected return of Greg Oden next season, the learning should continue at a rapid rate.
Item: Another reader wondered how it would help the Sixers if they made the playoffs and then got swept in four games.
Response: Everything changes in the postseason, the intensity of the players, the pressure, the attention. This is all good for players to experience. Andre Iguodala was a rookie when the Sixers lost in five games in the first round to Detroit. While some may question what benefit that was, it was an invaluable experience showing him what the postseason is all about and whetting his appetite to return. The lessons learned in the postseason are invaluable, even if a team is swept. The difference in covering the postseason as a reporter and the regular season is light night and day. Imagine what it is like for the players and coaches.
Item: Many didn’t agree with our post that stated Corey Maggette would be an interesting player to look at if he declares himself a free agent after this season.
Response: It wasn't stated that the Sixers should sign him and he might be too pricey anyway, but Maggette is somebody at least the Sixers should look at very closely.
He played extremely well against the Sixers, scoring 26 points (although he had no assists, which shows he is usually has a one-dimensional scoring mindset).
There are definitely other needs the Sixers have, but at this point, they shouldn’t discount the possibility of bringing somebody with Maggette’s offensive ability to the team.
Item: There continues to be a groundswell of support among those who write in about Rodney Carney.
Reponse: A key question is whether Carney will develop into a consistent NBA player. What he has been doing recently is showing a more aggressive mindset on defense, while tipping a lot of passes and causing turnovers. Carney has admitted that he is reenergized since his minutes have gone up and he has made a true contribution.
The question is, whether he will ever become a competent shooter from the perimeter. Since he plays shooting guard most of the time, Carney eventually has to develop some consistency on his jumper (He’s shooting 10 for 47, 21.3 percent from beyond the arc). While coach Maurice Cheeks has told him basically to not worry about shooting and do the other things such as defending and running the floor, eventually he will have to become a better shooter, especially when teams force the Sixers into a half-court game.
Carney is getting his confidence and he has worked hard after practices on his shooting, so maybe it will come around. At this point, the Sixers still don’t know quite what they have in Carney, but at least he is now getting the chance to show them his ability. It’s still a question whether he will be helpful to the Sixers in the future or possible trade bait. At least with the way he’s playing, the Sixers and other teams are going to have an easier time evaluating his ability.
Item: A reader proposed trading Andre Miller, Samuel Dalembert and this year’s No. 1 to Miami for Dwyane Wade and Ricky Davis’ expiring contract.
Response: One of the most interesting parts of this blog centers on reading some of the creative and well-thought out trade proposals by those making the posts. This one with Miami was neither. The proposals have to have some sort of realism to them and Miami wouldn’t consider trading Wade at this point unless another superstar was coming back. And even then it likely wouldn't happen.
Comments (84)
Wanting the team to lose is one thing, but the players being willing to look bad and apathetic, disappoint fans, and hurt their value around the league, is another
Posted by InsideHoops | February 10, 2008 11:58 PM
Posted on February 10, 2008 23:58
When I'm watching the game I always root for them because I can't root against them. But if I look up the score after the game and see that they lost I'm not disappointed. If they made the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed, I'd be happy even if they got swept. It's good experience for the players and I'd rather watch the Sixers in the playoffs than another team that I'm not a fan of. You never know what can happen and that's why they play the games. The Patriots looked unbeatable...I know it's different playing a 7 game series but I always say get in the playoffs if you can and see what happens.
Posted by Hoops76 | February 11, 2008 12:08 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 00:08
You will win more games by keeping Miller and making the youngsters grind their way into the line-up. If the team as currently constituted is close to what you want, then they should squeeze out every point, even if it means stifling the progress of the raw talent.
If you're aiming for next season, or beyond, then you get what you can for Miller and maybe other veterans, and give the young guys all the playing time you can. Their inexperience will cost more games this year, but speed up their progress for the near future. If they play well this year, than the resultant loss of lottery position is more than acceptable.
Posted by rzzzzz | February 11, 2008 12:41 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 00:41
The coaching staff should continue to play the youngers so they can gain experience wheather it results in wins or loses. If the sixers have a chance to make the playoffs they should try their hardest to get in because that experience makes you so much better as a player and makes you hungier to get back in. Also if these kids can find a way to win on a daily basics it means less money and draft picks to become a contender.
Posted by Donte | February 11, 2008 1:12 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 01:12
OK! So I was up early and was watching ESPN reruns. I don't know why, but I started thinking Andre Miller would be a good fit in Houston. He's better then Alston in my opinion and he would look good with McGrady and Yao. So I came up with this trade and ran it through the ESPN Trade Machine Beta. I don't know if I agree with their win projections before and after trades but according to them, this trade makes 2 of these teams much better. (Hou, Tor)
Here it is:
Houston gets:
Miller (Phi)
Green
Booth or Amundson
Kapono (Tor)
Utah's 1st round pick from Philly
Toronto gets:
Dalembert (Phi)
Alston (Hou)
Battier
Philly gets:
Calderon (Tor)
Dixon
Nesterovic
Snyder (Hou)
Francis
1st round pick from both (now or future)
Houston gets a better point guard, a player to replace Battier in Kapono, and Green for the bench since he's better then any G they have on the bench now. And a future first round pick.
Toronto gets a top C in Dalembert to play with Bosh (god knows Bargnani isn't it!), a tough defensive SF in Battier, and (since they already have $8mill/yr committed to Ford) a cheaper insurance policy (Alston) then what Calderon was going to cost them. And this team would match up better against Boston and Detroit.
Philly gets their PG of the future in Calderon and gets a head start getting him used to playing with Iggy and the boys. They get 3 expiring contracts in Dixon, Snyder, and Francis. And Nesterovic has a player option for next year he is sure to take. But that just means The Sixers would still have a $8-9 million expiring contract (same as Miller if he isn't traded) plus even more cap space, closer to $20 million. They would have 3 of their starting 5 for the next 10 year:
PG-Calderon
SG-Iggy
SF-Young
PF- ?
C - ?
Bench- Lou Will, Carney, Evans, Ja. Smith
Thats a decent start! And with Nesterovic's expiring contract, plus $20 million in cap space, and 3 first round picks (ours plus their picks if we can get them) I think we could fill the starting PF and C positions with all-star caliber players!
And for all those who think this trade would make the Sixers lose more this season, think again. I'm not so sure it would. We would have a real good PG in Calderon. Carney, Thad, and Ja Smith would all see more playing time. And as we've seen recently, the team seems to play better when the young guys are on the court!
What do you think?
Posted by Joe Doc | February 11, 2008 6:27 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 06:27
Thanks for the props, Marc. I disagree with a lot of posters that we are a long way away from contending with the current squad. This is not a team of journeymen and underachievers, like what we experienced in the mid 90's. This is a good young team short a couple pieces. Acquiring those pieces, coupled with the growth of our promising talent, will make us the next Pistons. I firmly believe that.
Posted by TormentedInBeantown | February 11, 2008 8:06 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 08:06
it's about damn time Marc pointed out those dummies who come up with these awful trade proposals.
Can we still get Shawn Marion for Dalembert??
Please, stay on RealGM.
Posted by Time_Out | February 11, 2008 8:17 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 08:17
I've had enough years of 'wait till next year,' why not strike now if the opportunity is presenting itself? If the Sixers were to latch a spot in the playoffs this year, I'd be happy. This town does become lively for their team when they're a winner, a playoff spark may be a good thing for this town and maybe the right piece of marketing for our FA recruiting in the offseason.
I still don't agree with the idea of signing Maggette. Why sign him if he's going to take away time from Iguodala and Thad, two growing pieces of this 'core' Eddie S is assembling? Granted, he's a nice player, but we have more glaring needs that should be addressed with this rare available cap room. (Is this the first bit of relief since before 2000? Anyone remember waiting for Matt Geiger's money to come off the books for so long?) From his interviews and the little things I've heard about him, I think Stefanski's got the right idea in mind: add a quality PF and a young PG to replace Miller. Fill in the pieces from there and we could be in for a bright future.
The more I see Thaddeus Young, the more I'm sold that he could turn out to be the hidden gem of a flashy 2007 draft. The guys at ESPN rating this year's rookies love him too, I believe he cracked into their top 8 rookies for the season, and rising.
Posted by Dan C. | February 11, 2008 8:42 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 08:42
When E.S. took over as G.M., J.Nash was quoted as saying E.SW. was the best talent evaluater he had ever seen.He has watched enough games to have an idea what he has.If he was truly concerned wiyh getting a top five pick, I think A.Miller would already be dealt.What if he sees Sam [Ratliff]; Jason Smith [ todays A.Mcdyess(10pts,6 reb.]; Thad [T.Prince]; Iggy [Moncrief,Wilkes]; A.Miller[Mark Jackson]; R.Carney [Bowen]; W.Green [ M.Barnes, Microwave?]; L.Will.[ best case(Gus Williams} worst case( S.Threat); R.Evans [ Rambis]; I tried to be realistic, these may be [the glass half filled] outlooks, but like TORMENTED just said, maybe E.S. likes what he sees. Now if we could add J.Smith [L. Nance] or Okafor[ O.Thorp] or K.Love [Cowens without the footspeed] or a 2 guard like Mayo [20 pt.scorer]; would this team compete?He could also like 2 or 3 players that will be there at 10 to15 in the draft; I guess we have to trust him!!!
Posted by suede | February 11, 2008 9:07 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 09:07
Just a few weeks ago I was really disapointed with the pace of play and the performance of Iggy. I have to say, I really liked the up tempo play that I have seen the last few games, including the losses. I agree with the thought that we win regardless. I was really disappointed with the loss of Kover from a chemistry standpoint. To my mind, chemistry is way more important than just having high profile players. If these guys can continue to develop this chemistry, I think we keep them together. We definately need a good PF and an outside shooter, but a little confidence can do wonders. I hope the trend continues.
Posted by chris | February 11, 2008 9:39 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 09:39
Suede and Tormented:
I love the optimism and I share some of that as well. As far as Mark's point, as long as we play the young guys consistently, then come what may in my opinion.
While I would love a top 5 pick. The would really have to seriously go in the tank to get there. They are simply honestly better and more talented than the teams currently below them. What bothered me about last year was that we won extra games on the backs of veterans who do not figure in out plans (Miller and Joe Smith). Last year we should have tanked at the end of the year. This year we are playing the young guys, which we have to do, so let the chips fall where they may.
In the next two off seasons we will be players in the free agency and trade markets, as well as a couple top 1/2 of the draft picks. If ES can't add the correct pieces to this young core given those opportunities, well, he'll be gone.
/Morty
Morty and Moishe Recommend...
Posted by Morty | February 11, 2008 10:00 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 10:00
The question is do you want to do well next season?
This year the Sixers are a mediocre team. They are loosing more than they are winning and the only reason we're discussing playoffs is that in the East there are a lot of bad teams.
I do think there is enough talent on the current roster to get us into the playoffs, but not the second round or beyond. And beating out all of those other mediocre teams means they get that lottery pick that could really help your team!
The price for making the playoffs is to deny your team a lottery pick.
A high draft pick is the maker/breaker of a pro sports team. Look at San Antonio- a good team that had a bad year and wound up with Tim Duncan. This was the defining trade of the Spurs and the basis for all those championships. The Spurs will make changes to their roster to get as much as they can out of TD, but they will never trade him. That made him worth much more than Allen Iverson, who the Sixers gave up trying to build a team around.
Everyone wants to win, but the reality is only one team gets the Championship every year. The Sixers haven't had one in over 25 seasons! This year doesn't look good either!
Next year, the Sixers have a chance IF they get a good pick out of the draft. That's the smart way to play - for the best chance at a successful future.
Posted by Rick | February 11, 2008 10:12 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 10:12
Rooting for the Sixers is a guilty pleasure. I admit that I know full well that in the end the number of wins only acts to decrease their chance of a 'great' lottery pick, but I can't ever root against them in the moment.
Look at how last year's draft is already shaping up: we all moaned and got our blogosphere in a twist because the 6ers won themselves out of the top 10 in the draft. Well, they also got thad for all of that (and we all complained then as well). So point is that the draft is a too much of a ceapshoot to count on (and now, who would you switch thad for, outside of Durant and maybe Oden, whose potential is starting to get covered up by his injuries).
That said, I'm really hoping they get Kevin Love. It would be the perfect fit for the Sixers...he's a banger PF, he would need to work on his half-court offense, but his bread and butter is his outlet pass. Think of it, that's 7-10 def rebs a game that turn into fast breaks. And he should be available when the 6ers pick.
Until then, go 6ers.
Posted by V | February 11, 2008 10:12 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 10:12
Management may want players to lose in order to get a better pick, but regardless of what they are instructed to do players will always try to win. Especially the marginal players because it is their jobs and futures that will be on the line if they look bad. Helping the team bring in better players by tanking games could ultimately cost them their careers.
I generally like the team that they are assembling. They hustle and they give it their all. Living in NYC I get to see a team that does not always give 100% and shows little if any improvement from a fundamental standpoint. I believe that an all-star caliber PF will put the team in the upper echelon in the east because what I can see they are not that far away. If you do not believe this just ask their opponents, even those who have just beaten us. There are no easy nights against this team because they are so athletic.
The rotation is much, much better now especially with Evans coming off the bench. His lack of scoring early in the games was costing us dearly. Now we are not falling behind as quickly and we stay competitive and allow the bench to play more meaningful games. C.Villanueva would be a great addition as long as they do not have to give up too much. One of our future high draft picks, Green, an expiring contract and Evans might do it.
Posted by Barton | February 11, 2008 10:21 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 10:21
If, by playing the young guys (please tone down the Miller and Green minutes, Mo) we win games, thats a good thing. If by playing the young guys we lose games, well, that's not terrible either. So, the way I see it, we have us a win-win situation here.
Last year, King should have bought out, cut or benched Joe Smith right away - like has been done w/ Giricek this year. Last year was our year to tank, and, after a promising start by trading Iverson, Billy K missed the boat. He even wanted to resign Joe Smith. What a schmuck, he was!
/Morty
Posted by Morty | February 11, 2008 10:40 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 10:40
v-
is klove coming out -and- where are the sixers going to pick? I totally agree about the outlet pass point you made however as an overall fit i'm not sure he's in the athletic mold they seem to be building this team into. still he's closer to what they need than anyone else they'll have a chance to pick. My question is will they really have a chance to pick him. doesn't look too certian to me. if anything i'd say they have an outside shot at best: better start loosing.
Posted by nutzonyachin | February 11, 2008 10:56 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 10:56
barton, if they give that up, although i realize that losing green is a plus, to get charlie v i'd be sorely dissappointed. he plays no D and can't even get minutes on a very bad milwakee team.
Posted by nutzonyachin | February 11, 2008 11:01 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:01
nutz, Love is not a certainty BUT I think since his dad is an ex NBA'er & his uncle and ex Beachboy, Klove will want to come out for the money. Also, his game is pretty defined.
I disagree regarding his offense. The only 'O' he needs to develop is a consistant jumper. He's better in the post & passing than most NBA power forwards.
His athleticism is in question which directly affects his defense. He can not help block shots from the weakside but we have sammy to do that and don't know if he can cover NBA power forwards.
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 11:08 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:08
Also, as UCLA continues through the tournament his Klove's value will probably continue to increase. I think He will be no later than a top 6-7 pick.
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 11:10 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:10
I think CBoozer had some of the same issues coming out of college................
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 11:16 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:16
sfw:
I remember, in years past, Iverson for Boozer trade rumors. Was there anything to those rumors? Because if so, damn Billy K once again.
/Morty
Posted by Morty | February 11, 2008 11:20 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:20
Morty - how can we be upset that Joe Smith was a valuable addition last year? If anything BK should have resigned him. He was a solid PF and a very good influence in the club house from what I've heard. Tanking didn't do much for those teams last year. And we got Thad who appears to have a very good future. I think the #1 mistake made by mgmt last year was the departure of Joe Smith. He could have bridged the gap to the future. He dropped 27 on GS the other night! We could use that production and influence right about now.
Posted by TormentedInBeantown | February 11, 2008 11:39 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:39
the 6ers may contend for a 7 8 spot but e.s. would never tank the season for draft position. there is a lot of talk of k.love and mayo just like last year there was a lot of talk of durant and oden. accept reality, this year the 6ers are a slightly above/below .500 team best/worst case scenerio. the best way to improve this season is through team chemistry. i can't think of one player short of t.duncan, l.james, k.bryant, etc. that would change 6er fortune this year. cap space is cleared for next season, onced cheeks is canned and a powerfoward is signed they will be a better team.
Posted by dbeas | February 11, 2008 11:42 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:42
Morty, not sure. He's turned into a great 1/2 court offensive player.
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 11:56 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:56
dbeas, do you want to be drafted by the sixers? Shouldn't you be at practice in Oklahoma?
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 11:58 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:58
winning games is what puts people in the stands!! as long as they keep playing the young kids with miller he'll teach them the right way to play and win. wait till after the season and see where they fall in the draft before rushing into any trades. ps: I hope none of you guys are on company time while writing to this blog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by tuna | February 11, 2008 11:59 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:59
winning games is what puts people in the stands!! as long as they keep playing the young kids with miller he'll teach them the right way to play and win. wait till after the season and see where they fall in the draft before rushing into any trades. ps: I hope none of you guys are on company time while writing to this blog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by tuna | February 11, 2008 11:59 AM
Posted on February 11, 2008 11:59
tuna, Off work til tomorrow. Just fishing for talent in the NBA ocean. What do you think of Klove?
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 12:05 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:05
watch him the other night, he would be a nice pick , but he"ll be long gone by the time we draft
Posted by Anonymous | February 11, 2008 12:07 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:07
I think klove is about 6' 9 " in heels !!!
Posted by tuna | February 11, 2008 12:09 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:09
anonymous/tuna, I've been pushing for usinf Lou Will to move up in the draft to get the main piee. Would you do that?
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 12:10 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:10
I guess the answer is no!
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 12:11 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:11
besides the fact that lou will plays no D and can't run the O ?? I would trade him in a sec. and throw in w green for free
Posted by tuna | February 11, 2008 12:13 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:13
Why are people so sanctimonious about choosing to drag an inadequate roster through yet another season, winning a handful of games against garbage teams and backing into the 8th playoff spot with a losing record?
We’re eating fast food right now.
Sure it tastes good and satiates the appetite, but long-term, it’s not good for anybody.
Just look at what all that McDonald’s did to Grimace.
Sadly, this town is so desperate for a winner that they’re buying into what the Sixers organization and the media are feeding them: the idea this team can contend in the near future.
It can’t.
Not one team, one single team, in the last 17 years has won an NBA championship without a top-3 pick:
Spurs: Duncan, #1 pick
Heat: Shaq, #1 pick
Pistons: Billups, #3 pick
Lakers: Shaq, #1 pick
Bulls: Jordan, #3 pick
Rockets: Olajuwon, #1 pick
But the organization is desperate. Ticket sales are in the toilet and ratings are down. The team will not be featured on national television even once this entire season.
Comcast badly needs the revenue that comes with false hopes and a playoffs appearance.
Do I advocate “tanking”?
No.
Please do not lump those of us who believe in building a team the right way and all the bumps and bruises that come with it, with “tanking”.
We’ve all seen where a roster that’s above horrible, but well below good-enough left us this year.
Why in the world are we choosing to do the same thing all over again?
Posted by Coach Clyde | February 11, 2008 12:17 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:17
Frazier, you talking about the knicks or sixers?
Posted by tuna | February 11, 2008 12:20 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:20
Coach Clyde, While I agree with your point of needing that cornerstone player to win, the draft pick is still an absolute crapshoot.
First, you have to actually "win" the lottery, regardless of record. Look at last year and the statistical (im)probability that both Portland and Seattle would jump into the top 3.
Next, you have to actually draft the right player, if oen exists in that draft. You gave us 5 names. 17 years times top 3 picks is 41. Thats a 12.2% chance.
Finally, you have to keep said player and surround with talent. Both Shaq and Chauncey won on teams that did not draft them.
Creating a winning attitude, in which the franchise works to a common goal, like the playoffs, goes a long way.
Posted by RG | February 11, 2008 12:27 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:27
I think Chauncey shouldn't be lumped in with the other great 1-3 players drafted. It took a couple years/teams for him to have an impact.
I'm sure Suede can come up with a trade scenario for us to build a winner. Personally, I think on draft night either Lou Will or Andre M. OR both along with a No.1 could move us to where we need to be.
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 12:32 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:32
I think that guy suede is on crack with some of the deals he comes up with
Posted by tuna | February 11, 2008 12:38 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:38
If you throw enough sh@t on the wall some of it will eventually stick. signing off......
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 12:45 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:45
Coach Clyde:
Iverson - #1 pick
Weber - #1 pick
Joe Smith - #1 pick
Derrick Coleman - #1 pick
Shawn Bradley - #2 pick
Keith Van Horn - #2 pick
maybe we should add Kwame Brown next...
Posted by Dan C. | February 11, 2008 12:51 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:51
Is there a cornerstone player in 2008 Free Agency? Should we continue to tank until the glorious 2010 Free Agency Period comes upon us?
Bottom line, unless someone is VERY unhappy with their current situation and gets a sign-and-trade, or unless we somehow win the lottery on the RIGHT draft year, I don't see a cornerstone player coming to Philadelphia. I would have said yes to Eltom Brand a few years ago, but now he's questionable due to health and age. This is why I don't want to waste space on a Maggette, we'll be locked in yet again and will have to hear about 'waiting until cap space opens up in 3-4 years'
Posted by Dan C. | February 11, 2008 12:55 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:55
Ugghh, thanks for depressing me Dan C.! Don't forget Glenn "Big dog" Robinson! Holy S, the 1st pick from '93-'96 have all worn a sixers uniform.
Posted by RG | February 11, 2008 12:58 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:58
Wow. That's what I call talent/character evaluation...... I think billy began looking heavily at the character of players in last years draft. Before that they were just trying to piece players around AI. Now, with enough character guys around they may add a slightly bad apple or 2. We'll see......
Posted by sfw | February 11, 2008 12:58 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 12:58
RG, you saved me there, thanks for the reminder. I should add Jerry Stackhouse, but let's not go overboard. The "Big Dog" was enough of a memory for me to want to forget again...
In most of our trade talks on Marc's board, I see Sammy as being one of the bigger names. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel he's improved over these past two seasons and that maybe we really should keep him in the fold?
Here's an article about Mark Cuban's thoughts RE: Sammy:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20080211_Trades_no_worry_to_Mavs.html
Posted by Dan C. | February 11, 2008 1:08 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 13:08
Tormented:
I'm on your side about not purposefully tanking, but you have to play the the young guys, because (duh) they are the future.
Joe Smith is old old old. Please explain to me the utility of signing him to a 5.2 mil deal? So he could take minutes from Thad? Or do you really believe the 17-9 finish last year with Miller, Smith, Korver, et. al. was not a mirage? Is that the team you want going forward?
Not me.
/Morty
Morty and Moishe Recommend...
Posted by Morty | February 11, 2008 1:12 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 13:12
I think ES should be open to dealing anyone on the roster, but I'd keep Sammy unless a team made a ridiculous offer for him.
I agree with Dan C on the FA class this year as well, nothing out there that can dramatically change the franchise. Why spend money just cause they have it?
Posted by RG | February 11, 2008 1:17 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 13:17
Wasn't Billy Owens a top 3 pick too? Remember that debacle?
Flat out you don't dump games. I'd love to see this team gel more and make the playoffs. If I only thought they'd be decent 3 years from now, I wouldn't spend the time and effort in watching the games and discussing this team with you all. I'd just watch a couple years from now.
Even if the Sixers draft spot drops cause they make the playoffs, this draft is still decent. Patrick Patterson, Kevin Love, Richard Hendrix and Ryan Anderson are all viable power forward picks that could develop.
Heck they could even develop a foreign player in the middle of the round. Here are a couple options...
http://nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/alexisajinca.html
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/sergeibaka.html
I've never seen these guys, but ES has a rep for developing talent, especially foreign talent.
Even if we make the playoffs, it's not as if we don't have the ammo to move up in the draft. So let's keep winning and see what happens.
Posted by Theo | February 11, 2008 1:24 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 13:24
sfw,
love the idea to trade louwill and our #1 to move up, provided we move far enough and a player is there thats worth moving up for (of course i'd much rather lose and not have to give anything up to get that pick). lou is a flawed player in that he's really a 2 inside a 1's body (i think...although when he runs the point his #'s like assists/t.o.'s is good) which causes defensive problems, not his strong suit to begin with, as we've seen with another little 2 who used to play here. that being said he's a captivating player who can really score, might still be a good point, and has true value to another team. You have to give something to get something and he seems like our most expendable player to get us a piece that we really need. good call
Also wouldn't mind seeing dalembert go if they get a big in return.
Finally, cheer up sixers fans, stefanski will make a max contract offer to josh smith and might be able to pry him from atlanta (if they don't match it.......and ifthey don't match what do we have to give up....that i'm curious about if anyone can help me?) smith is the only star quality difference maker type of player out there who's young enough and fits this teams desperate need for a power forward and fast eddie isn't clearing all this cap space for nothing. remember he's trying to clear for THIS year, indicating he plans on spending it THIS summer.
Posted by nutzonyachin | February 11, 2008 1:24 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 13:24
Hilarious, Dan C.
But you’re interpreting that I’m saying if A = B and B = C, then A = C.
No team in the last 17 years has one a championship without a top draft pick.
But obviously, that doesn’t mean a top draft pick guarantees a championship.
Hence Kwame Brown.
All I’m saying is that this team does not have anything remotely close to the talent level of a championship team.
Nor does the path it’s heading down lead to acquiring anything remotely close to the talent level of a championship team.
Corey Maggette? Charlie Villanueva? The 11th pick in next year’s draft?
Where’s the championship-caliber talent going to come from?
I’m not even saying that you need a #1 pick to win. But it helps.
Posted by Coach Clyde | February 11, 2008 1:33 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 13:33
People really should stop confusing making the playoffs with having a winning team. Yes, the Sixers are one game out of the playoffs in the East. They also are 21 - 30, which is a .412 winning percentage. Just for perspective, that pace will get you 95 losses for baseball season. They would need to go 20 - 11 (.645 clip), which is about the pace the Spurs are at this season, to finish .500. The point - No matter how close they are to the playoffs, they are not very good right now and are a long way and multiple pieces from being a team that can compete for an NBA title. Playing up how a quick playoff appearance with a poor record will catapult them long-term seems to be pretty short sighted. Yes, it may help develop them in some positive ways but ultimately, players win in the NBA. They need more and are not even close to the cusp of being a top team in the East.
Posted by Ryan | February 11, 2008 1:35 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 13:35
you don't need much to contend in the east, just a good coach and a couple of good players. the 6ers have a crappy coach and 1 o.k. player.
Posted by dbeas | February 11, 2008 2:02 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 14:02
why don't you asked san antonio who tank a season for duncan they didn't bring back robinson so they would get a shot at duncan how many championship did they win how about cleveland tanking two years for le bron,buffalo losing the last game to get simpson and we win and get keyes a stiff,we lose a shot at plunkett and he beats us in the superbowl,we win meanless games for the honor of the city and others city get championship,do you think new england cares what people think about there cheating they won superbowls and paid a small fine to what it was worth to them and lose a draft choice when they had two and keep the higher pick
Posted by rocky | February 11, 2008 2:07 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 14:07
RG/Dan C - I agree that we shouldn't just spend money because we have it.
I think we should try to win no matter who is on our roster. As, intelligently, referred to above, we have had many #1's, 2's, 3's and other lottery picks in general. If you recall, we did have THE AI on this team for years with no rings. We need to make the right choice, no matter what position we are in the draft. Dallas was at #30 and took Josh Howard. 29 other teams missed on him! We took Larry Hughes instead of Paul Pierce etc, etc, etc. We'd kill to have Carlos boozer on this team right now. Was he a #1? Was he a first rounder? You just have to find that right player.
The draft is just a part of the building process. We have a few lottery picks on this team right now. Let them grow. They will win.
Tanking games is disgraceful. No other way to put it. Just a question, but how is it different that fixing games?
Posted by Craig | February 11, 2008 2:11 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 14:11
nutzonyachin, if Atlanta does not match the offer, We do not give up anything accept the $$ to Smith. In the NFL the team gets an comp pick, but not in the NBA.
Posted by Craig | February 11, 2008 2:39 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 14:39
Morty - The same Billy King that you rip over and over again is the person that put this roster together. You love Thad and Jason Smith, yet you repeatedly call Billy King an imbecile.
You then talk about Billy King being an idiot for wanting to re-sign Joe Smith, yet you're the biggest supporter of keeping Andre Miller to develop young talent on this board. You talk out of both sides of your mouth dude.
Everyone on this board needs to understand this: The jury's still out on Ed S., and we'll see what he does (I clearly didn't agree with the Korver move), but let's not confuse things here. The reason that Billy King got fired and that Ed S. is here is that Comcast is a bottom-line business. There were no asses in the seats, and Peter Luko took advantage of the situation to make a power play on Ed Snider. The WHOLE DAMN TEAM on the floor is the team that Billy King put together, save the wonderful Gordon Giricik.
If that's not the case, then how else can you explain why Ed Snider used to go to 25-30 games a season in his floor seats and hasn't been to ONE SINGLE GAME since BK got fired? Say what you want about Billy King's past moves (some were atrocious), but give the man the props he deserves right now.
Posted by Dean | February 11, 2008 2:40 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 14:40
Here's one of those "means absolutely nothing but is still kinda fun to look at" pages.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds
Hollinger has us at a 60% chance to make the playoffs but, even more interesting than that, a 1.8% chance to make the Finals, a better shot than Cleveland and Washington, teams projected to finish higher than us. Once again, this is just based on one man's simulations, but what it tells me is that he sees potential in this group.
To be honest, I do too. Maybe not this year, with our 1.8% shot. But look at our team for next year, with three big assumptions: continued development of Thad as our starting SF (seems plausible), landing a high-quality (read: Josh Smith) PF, Carney and/or Smith finding their shot (maybe the biggest stretch).
We would have an above average/excellent PG (for the East) in Miller, an above average/excellent SG in Iggy (with Carney backing him up), an average/above average SF in Thad, an excellent PF in Smith, and an above average C in Sammy. Not even considering Lou and our 08 draft pick.
I'm not saying at all that the talent would be on par with Boston/Detroit, let alone the beasts of the West, but it would be in the neighborhood. Plus, talent isnt everything. Look at Boston this year..as much of the reason they are winning as the talent added is the confidence and chemistry they are playing with this year. How else do you explain beating Dallas and SA back to back without KG?
Just something to think about for the glass half empty crowd.
Posted by Matt M. | February 11, 2008 2:49 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 14:49
Some of you just don't get it! "Tanking games is disgracefull"
What a shortsighted comment! The truth is tanking games gets rewarded. You may not like it, or how it violates you're sense of "fair play" but that is the way it is!
Just answer the question: Do you want the Sixers to be significantly better next year, Yes or No.
If the answer is Yes, make sure you get a lottery pick, the more ping-pong balls the better.
It doesn't guarantee we'll get a better player, but it increases the odds dramatically. It is the smart move, and therefore the right move.
It doesn't take a lot for a team like the Sixers to miss the playoffs, just a few losses here or there. But with the Nets, Hawks Pacers and Wizards right there, what do you do when they tank, allowing the Sixers to get into the playoffs, while they come back next year with the draft pick you're team needed!
You have to compete in the right way. Right now we're competing to get good draft picks so we can compete later in the NBA. Something we CAN'T DO with the current roster.
Also, the players on the roster know that the team isn't good enough. The good ones know that the weak players are the ones holding them back. The best way to get rid of the bad ones is to replace them with young talent taken in the draft, who then beats them out in training camp.
You don't think Igoudala dreams about having a stud PF on the team? He knows he can't win with the current roster, but he also knows with a couple of players the team could become a winner. You can bet that the players who want to win a championship can undestand that throwing a few games is the best way to get them the help they need, and to get people into the stands.
Posted by Rick | February 11, 2008 2:50 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 14:50
Dean-o:
You can't tell the difference between a player with an expiring contract and player with 2.5 years left on it (Miller when we traded for him)???
That's just being stupid on purpose.
Furthermore, I've never once said there is value in Miller developing young talent - that's an idea I don't have a position. I've merely advocated for getting as close to dollar for dollar value out of him, not the .60 cents on the dollar you would prefer just to have him gone.
Again, I realize you and I disagree about the Korver trade and the value of moving Miller this year, but you must be acting stupid on purpose with this issue.
Lastly, I believe I called Billy King a schmuck, not an imbecile. But yes, while overall his term as GM was a disaster, nobody can do every single thing wrong. He has made some good draft picks (including your beloved Korver). I've never criticized him for his drafting, unless you want to call him out for Larry Hughes and Tim Thomas, but I blame Larry Brown for those picks.
Now, I agree with you about the reason BK got fired. Ed Snider finally realized that something had to change. By the way, Snider is reason number one in my book as to why the Sixers are what they are. He doesn't care enough, and after he forced Croce out, no one else did.
/Morty
Posted by Morty | February 11, 2008 2:57 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 14:57
Here is another great move by Billy King. Way to think ahead, Billy.
/morty
Posted by Morty | February 11, 2008 3:08 PM
Posted on February 11, 2008 15:08
Coach Clyde--
Interesting stat about how every team that has won it all for the last 17 years has had a top 3 draft pick on the roster.
However, that doesn't mean the Sixers need to get one of the top 3 picks in the draft. Did the Heat draft Shaq? Did the Pistons draft Billups? Did the Lakers draft Shaq? The answer to those questions is no. So if the Sixers keep building a winning atmosphere, and start getting a little closer they may become a more attractive team to a top free agent. Or maybe they will be able to swing a trade to bring in the talent.
How did tanking work out for the Celtics. It didn't work out like they planned. So they went the trade route, which seems to be working.
The Sixers should focus on winning and setting themselves up to big in talent any way they can.
Posted by Willie Burton | February 11, 2008 3:10 PM