Deep Sixer

As a journalist, Marc has an obligation (more, I would hope a desire) to comment on that elbow flailing non-call. And it sickened me to hear the Cavs broadcasters laugh while labeling the non-call as a 4 point swing. Correct- they, the Broadcasters ought be suspended and fined; you would think they forgot they were working a Cavs game, not a Browns game.

That was sickening as a non-call, and I hope Iguodala was not concussed. He looked woozy on the last possession, yet he probably stayed in only as it was crunch time.Had it been earlier, I would hope the Trainers would have taken him back for a quick concuss exam.
Hopefully, he will be OK.

Those effing broadcasters, deeming a decked out cold player as HUMOROUS, ought be severely docked a paycheck or three, and those Refs? As posted above, Stefanski needs to get on the NBA soapbox and protect his players. As Thorn was well known to repeatedly do, Right away, Ed. Wherever you are, do it NOW.

Yes, to elaborate, that non-call elbow thrown by Z to Iguodala's head in the last 2 minutes was as game-changing an officials 3 man crew screw up as can be.

Up 5 with your guy with the rock in the Paint gets elbowed to the head, knocked down and out to create a 5 on 4 break the other way, that the Cavs broadcasters gleefully proclaimed a 4 point SWING!

And they never again even referred back to Iguodala's status, rather laughed at the folly of the replay and non-call.

That's lower than bush league.
Spoke my peace. Yeah, that was REAL game-changing, impact wise; had a whistle by one of these 3 clowns been blown, the game might then have been sealed as a Sixer Win.

Why harp on a non-call? Because it was a flagrant elbow to Iggy's head. Not a mere hand check, etc.

Out.

Course, if Marc was not THE MAN, I would vent elsewhere. But Marc is now the Voice and/or Ear, or a hybrid, of Sixers fans. That is without dispute. As I see it.

G Nite all.
These losses can have a way of reinvigorating any team. The Suns were desparate, that I expected. Tonite was there for the taking, but the Zebras, as often happens, dictated the outcome, more through sheer incompetency. It won't be the last time either,

Another Sixer shoots 1-9, 3-17, 1-7, 4-14, 2-8 in the five games prior to today's game with the Cav's and the coaches decide to DNP Jason Smith because they're not happy with his play?

Interesting.

C'mon!. That's 11-55? R U Serious?
Gotta be Willie, anybody else would be ruled Inactive, no?

NBA Coaches are a breed unto themselves.

Take Don Nelson; the Warriors thrive on mismatches, from the opening tip. S Jackson at the "4", a classic 2/3 Swing player, versatile for sure. Davis and Ellis, 6'2 each, as Combo Guards. The other Wing is either Azubuke,Pietrus, Barnes, one of the 6'5- 6'6 guys on Roster with either 6'9 Harrington at the 5, who can play the 2 or 3 and shoots 3s, and/or Biedrins, who is 6'10 jumping jack who can board, block and dunk, defend, as B Wright is learning well.

Having said all that, why can't Ed just finally tell Mo to start Lou at the 2, or, as part of the starting backcourt, and sit Willie down DNP for 5 games to rest, or whatever he needs.
At an earlier time, WG actually defended well. Although, maybe it was just against Ben Gordon. Now, he seems instant prey against all opponents from the start of every game, and is just abused daily. He needs at least a break.

Lou is catching up to Monta Ellis a bit, and is a year younger. Thing is, if at times there is good reason to start Reggie, then start Lou, not Willie. If WG is after a break ready to start again, on trial, or God knows why, then start Thad not Reggie.
Seems too logical to insert either Lou or Thad, course, yes, overlooked Rodney, one of the three out start to be on offensive end to assist the Andres.

Who cares about height, age, weight, etc. Even position.

Either you are a wing, or strictly a Big or a Backcourt guy, w or w/out handles, w or w/o vision, dish skills, etc.

All this ish does not matter for spans within a game, if the other Coach is scratchin his nuts, sweatin beads.

Nellie learned that about 10 years ago. About 3 yrs before the Knicks fire him after 35 games into a 3 year, $14M contract they paid him off to leave, cuz Ewing refused to adapt to Nellie's pick and roll defense.

If Willie Green is 11-55, and he doesnt dish or board, and hasn't defended of any note at all lately, then SIT HIS AERSS DOWN, MO. Ya don't have to wait for Ed to say the same, he wants YOU to show some initiative. Smell the Starbucks, Mo.

Good points Find.Freeze; If Thad isn!t hitting his jumper than he helps in other ways, same with Lou and Rod. I would like to see Iggy at the 2 and Thad at the 3 to start, and I wouldn!t mess with L.Will. and Carney because they supply a major lift offthe bench and are getting very comfortable together. I don!t know what is up with Jason, he sets good screens, works hard and seems to be shooting better lately; what could Mo be looking for and what does Booth do better?

...if the Sixers won this game, would everyone think Mo is a genius for his lineup moves? Willie Green will kill this teams chances night after night. What gives on that? It's eerily similar to what I see going on with the Flyers and their coach and his "playing his favorites". It's really got to be about the hot hand, doesn't it?

You know what is crazy? Willie G could be our starting sg for the entire next season with mo here. I just dont understand why he is taking away valuable playing time from Carney and Thad.

Also how does Sammy have 3 plays called for him every game and Thad gets none? There is nothing that makes me more confident then when slammin sammy shoots a fade-away off his wrong foot.

Perhaps the play calling is a way of us trying to justify paying Sammy D. 10 million dollars a year to give us sporadic good play...

Sixers were 12 points better than the Cavs last night...that is why the outcome was disappointing.

Yet at same time, amazing how far the Sixers have come when we are disappointed they didn't beat Cavs in Cleveland in a meaningful game for both teams.

Iguodala said it best...team lost some intensity and coasted ahile. That couples with SO MANY mistakes around the basket by the young guys (Williams and Young), and Willie Green just killing the Sixers.

But I am confident they will rebound.

And to piggyback off of John, we don't even have that long to wait...another matchup with the Cavs await...but jeez...Willie Green and his .200 shooting percentage over the last while (just rounding up) can't be helping our cause...I know he hurt his back a while ago so just keep him out until he's 100% at least...

It was a good game and they deserved to win. The refs blew the call, as they often do. Don't forget - they were the ones that won Miami the title a few years ago. If anyone breathed on Wade, it was a foul.

Overall, I was impressed with how we played. I think the two biggest take aways (positives) from this game are the comfort level at which Young seemed to be playing and Mo calling Iggy's number in the post isolation against Lebron. I have been saying it for a few months now - Iggy can use his strength and athleticism as good as anyone at his position in the post and that was evident by how he took Lebron last night late in the 4th. I hope we continue to see that 5 to 8 times a game - at least once or twice a quarter.

Hugh:

I agree That Dre should use his strength in the post more often, but I disagree with Mo's tactics at the end of the game to match Dre one on one with LeBron. Just run the normal offense in my opinion.

That said, the missed foul call was terrible.

In my opinion, Mo should be starting Dre at SG, and Thad at SF. ES has said this is what he wants to do, so I don't understand why he hasn't given Mo a directive. I just don't understand the attachment to Green, who has basically had 2 good months in his entire NBA career, yet gets a consistent 20 minutes+ irregardless of the quality of his play.

It would be interesting to know whether Ed and Mo have discussed Green. I can figure three possible reasons why he still starts at two - one is they talked about it an Mo just didnt care to listen, and the other is ed has plans for the two spot that dont involve anyone on the current roster, the third is they're trying to showcase him for a trade. I think the last posibility is most likely, given that ed went on record a few weeks back about who he thinks his starters are and willie was not on that list.

Suede, Good points re: jason smith/booth.

Agreed. Green has to sit. He should be relegated to mop up duty.

Respectfully disagree on Iggy vs. Lebron. I am not sure what the normal offense is anyway. I want to see Iggy take it right at him at this point in the season - I want him to continue to develop that chip on his shoulder that all great scorers (Jordan, Kobe, Iverson, McGrady, Pierce, etc.) have - especially going in to the playoffs. He did it against Boston in the second half last week, and that was as impressive as I have ever seen him. He has to be the guy who carries the scoring load in the playoffs, in my opinion. Also, it will give us one last look at what he really has before we invest the next 5+ years in him.

Suede - good call on Jason Smith. I only want to see Booth in spot duty (5 - 6 minutes at most).

Hugh:

I can see your point, and perhaps it's just 6 one way, 1/2 dozen the other, but from what I have seen from Dre this season when placed in that role, I'm not convinced that is our best strategy for the end game.

I think Dre has been only mildly successful at best in that role. Our game is a real team game, and focuses on Miller and Dre creating for themselves and their teammates. So when we run the isolation play, I think we move away from our strengths.

Hey Iggy if you want to get paid big boy money then please start making YOUR FROGGING FREE THROWS. Willie must have the same dirt on mo that starbury has on isiah.

Snarf Snarf

KM - I completely agree with your conclusion on The Willie Situation, that being "they're trying to showcase him for a trade". If they bench him, they will be dealing from a weaker position. Better to let him try and play out his "streak", in the hopes that he puts together some 20+ games down the stretch, thereby reinflating his value. Maybe some desperate team will bite on him in a package.

To reiterate, I appreciate the years of service that WG has provided but I don't see him as an NBA starting 2. Sorry WG.

Here's hoping it's a trade showcase. I've got no problem if so, although it would be nice if Green could hold up his end of the bargain.

Morty, yeah, that was where i was going with that thought. It will be interesting to see if he comes down with some minor "injury" that keeps him out if the current level of play continues.

Yes, if they need to bench him for poor play, an "injury" would be less harmful to any trade prospects.

I can't see it being a trade showcase, I would love that to be true but you don't start someone every game that he is healthy for a whole season just to showcase him. Starting someone for 2 weeks is showcasing, but after the deadline the showcasing is done. Especially for a team with playoff hopes. Bottom line, WG is a mediocre player and none of us sixers fans can figure out why he is getting so much burn.

there's nothing wrong with showcasing a guy but after he misses 3 or 4 shots in a row, and has 1 or 2 bad judgment decisions, maybe its time to put someone else in. why does cheeks stay with bad lineups for such long stretches in games? it seems if carney takes one bad shot he yanks him immediately.

Guys are showcased for trades BEFORE the trade deadline, not after it. Nor during a stretch run to get into the Playoffs.

Get real fellas.

dbeas:

That is precisely what boggles my mind. Once Mo goes to the reserves, he can have a quick hook, but with his starters it's a very different story. However, Green and Evans ARE bench players masquerading as starters, so why the long leash?

Anon:

Wishful thinking. Can't blame us for hope.

Huh? Whatever.

dont be such a know-it-all anon, people are just looking for answers as to why cheeks do some of the things that he does.

exactly. no one is saying they agree with the situation. just speculation about a side point on a slow day.

The Sixers did not lose the game because of Willie Green, if they did, than it would be a different story. I agree that Willie should be coming off the bench. If Lou can score 15 points in 20 min and Thad can score 20 points in 20 min, I wonder how many points both can scorer if you gave them 40 min. I am curious? Both players are interchangeable players they play multi able positions. You know what burns me up, the whole first half the sixers double team lebron kept the ball out of his hands and he scored 4 points. The second have the sixers went to IGGY vs Lebron match up, and I am sorry I like IGGy but Lebron is bigger, stronger, and more talented than Iggy, Lebron lit Iggy up for 20 points. What was worse, miller did a better defense job on Lebron than Iggy. IF it is not broke, don't fix it. Jason Smith isn't playing, because he is not part of the playoff rotation. THe sixers only going to use a 8 man rotation in the playoffs. That means Jason is the odd man out.

Jason Smith HAS to be in the playoffs rotation. We are not winning a title this year so no need to bench him for I-don't-know-what purpose, throw him out there for 15 min per night and see what he can do, he can only learn.

BTW what has he done so terrible to deserve a DNP-CD? I don't see it...

As for his minutes you are in a typical chicken-egg situation, have his minutes dropped because he's not playing well or he's not playing well because... well, he doesn't play ???

But what contradicts this logic is the Willie Green case, he's been playing like crap lately but still he is there for 20 minutes a night reguardless of his efficiency.... so?

I am ok with the decision of leaving Green in the starting line up, you don't change chemistry in a group that is performing so well and you also have to reward him for what Green he did this year (and I am NOT a Green fan...), but for God's sake cut his minutes and bench him after the first three bricks, we can't afford more 3/17, 4/14 nights in these last games

I am still confident anyway, let's take the Nets game, go Sixers !!!

I agree - Jason Smith must be in the rotation. You don't invest a 1st round pick in a big guy and then not use him in the playoffs, where he will gain the most experience of his young career.

Iggy
Sam
Lou
Thad
Rodney
Smith
Miller
Evans

These are the primary eight - with some spot duty for Green, Ollie and Booth (foul trouble, etc.)

On second thought, I read the article today and Mo said that he liked how Dalembert was playing, so Smith never got any minutes.

Iv!e said from the get go that a 10 man rotation is needed to play this style, that!s why we are so good on back to backs. It is a 9 player rotation now and over the summer we hopefully upgrade on Green and add a 24 minute p.f. than we will be at 10. Detroit also uses 9 players but the difference is their coach seems leary about giving their young guys too many minutes, which may hurt them in the end.

Has anybody noticed that even with Green's recent miserable 13-64 slump, he has a higher season shooting % (.437) than both Williams (.419) and Carney (.410), players who are being suggested as playing time replacements.

Also, Green and Williams both average 1.55 turnovers, but Williams gets it done in 4 fewer minutes (23 to Green's 27).

Williams, while improving, would get torched if assigned to a steady dose of starting shooting guards - one reason he doesn't get the starting nod over Green and more playing time.

I think Mo appreciates Willie's approach - quiet, undramatic, effortful - and relative solidity (outside his recent shooting woes), therefore, he's given him the benefit of doubt regarding playing time during his obvious slump.

Jumpin':

While I agree with you that Lou is better served coming off the bench, Willie's FG% vs. Lou's doesn't tell the real story. Lou, because he gets to the line more than Green, averages more points per shot, and Lou's "true shooting percentage," which takes into acount the higher value of the 3 ball and FT's, is higher as well (52-49). In fact, Carney's TS% is just 1 point behind Green.

I would simply move Dre to SG and Thad to SF, thus keeping Carney and Lou off the bench.

I just noticed I missed an opening question mark placement. Please slide to help, and recover.

Green reminds me of John Starks in that he is streaky and when he is not hitting - he is pretty much useless as he is not a good defenderm, set up guy and he is not good at getting to the rim/line. Williams can penetrate more and Carney can provide more athleticism.

We can't blame the game on one call or non-call, in this case. My take on it was that the Sixers wasted so many opportunities for easy baskets. They missed way too many "bunnies" underneath that could have put this game away. That said, I was very frustrated that Mo went with Reggie Evans for 27-28 minutes in that game. I love Reggie's energy and hustle, but that is too many minutes for him. He failed to finish near the rim on several occasions. Jason Smith and/or Young could have taken up 10 of those minutes and I think we would have been a more effective team. I am tired of hearing about matchups. We should be dictating the matchups with our faster, quicker, more athletic line-ups instead of reacting to what the opponent is doing.

Morty, Interesting. Am curious, "true shooting %" - available on a web site or self-calculated? Haven't run across that one. On face, not entirely sure of its validity as performance measurement but it seems to have merit. A given: Williams puts more stress on an opponent's defense by virtue of 3 threat (but he's not yet Craig Hodges) and natural quickness and assertiveness.

Jumpin':

Check basketball reference.com for the TS% and other advanced stats. Also 82games.com has a +/- ratings, and Hollinger's PER at ESPN is good, as well as the Wages of Wins website. I tried to make some links but the comment was held for approval. These sites try to do for basketball what Bill James, et. al. have done for baseball.

I would not take all the stats as the gospel, but they do show a deeper picture than the traditional stats.

Zebra, Match-ups remain an integral part of the NBA game. If you don't pay attention to them, boat missed. Fast-breaking, athletic teams still have to get it done on D end, which includes match-up considerations.

I tend to agree with you, generally, on Evans' heavy minutes and its lack of wisdom. He's admirable for his defensive bravery - which strengthens by example some teammates' feinter hearts - and rebounding knack, but his not finishing underneath and bricking at the foul line deplete team's cause. Also, his unusual license from Mo to jump and trap at will sometimes creates chaos for both teams, doesn't always work to Sixers' advantage. Essential question: Are team results diminished when he rides pine? Would be interesting to know his total plus/minus figure.

Thanks a lot, Morty, for the good resources (and link effort).

Hugh, Carney's athleticism is as good to Sixers as yours or mine minus proper application. Has had a decent run of late; still streaky and a bit timid as a player yet.

Will always remember Starks' amazing, improv, left-handed thunder dunk, starting drive in right corner, over Mourning, PJ Brown or another big in playoffs.

Again, not a stat that is really kept officially, but i think when evaluating reggie you have to take into account the number of fouls he draws. Even if he only hits 50% free throws (which has actually be improving lately anyway), he keeps the opposing big men honest - and sometimes on the bench - just by drawing the contact. Guys just cant play as aggressively when the pick up 2 quick ones in the first half... Not to mention the fact he makes the little guys keep an eye out lest they wind up bouncing off him and landing on their butts...

That said, I agree that he's a 20-25 min/night guy, and better suited to coming of the bench in most cases.

As far as lou v. willie, definitely agree that you need to look past field goal shooting %. you dont even have to go as far as the "advanced stats", though they tell the tale also. Their TO's are almost the same but lou has two more assits per game, just over 100 more on the season. He also has significantly more steals. Most importantly, Lou is shooting 37% from 3 on the season to Willie's 29%. This more than makes up for willie's 2% advantage in field goals. As far as defense, well lets just say its not a super strong point for either of them.

Im really not trying to bash Willie, and i can actually understand the mentality that says Willie was the veteran coming into the season, so he gets the benefit of the doubt. Can also understand not wanting to mess with things this late in the season. Just observing the facts, bottom line is im surprised if there is no change at 2 in the offseason.

Jumpin':

You're welcome, no problem. If you go to basketball reference and look at the section where they control for a 36 minute average, you will see that Carney would average 2 points less than Green (on 2 less shots), but will get more steals, blocks and rebounds, as well as getting to the foul line slightly more often, and having less turnovers (although their assist:TO ratio is about the same).

First off, kudos to Mark for following up on two questions that were raised on the blog yesterday - the first about why Jason Smith was a DNP and the second around how the Sixers plan to deal with Willie Green's shooting woes. It is not often that a reporter listens to his readers like a business listens to its customers.

Zebra - good point about match-ups. Jason Smith surely would have issues defending Ilgauskas as Cheeks said, but the thought of forcing Ilgauskas to defend Smith brings similar images. Smith's ability to step outside and shoot from the elbows along with his ability to outquick a slower Ilgauskas to the hoop might have worked to the Sixers advantage for some of those minutes.

What would be interesting, but I'm not sure how to do it, would be to compare Carney's recent stretch of solid play compared to Willie's best stretch of play over the season, and see who comes out ahead.

KM:

I would say there is a 99.99% chance Green does not start for the Sixers next year.

Jumpin'Johnny: it's a little surprising to me, given that you've been consistently critical of Iguodala and (lately) Dalembert, that you've been so staunchly supportive of Green. Morty made some good points about Lou vs. Green shooting-wise, and I would add to those comments that Lou is MUCH more valuable than Green on offense because of his ability to draw fouls. This is reflected somewhat in true shooting percentage, but even that stat doesn't capture the full value of putting the other team into the penalty early, because the whole team benefits when that happens (except for Iguodala, ha ha). Green, on the other hand, never goes to the line (a 6-to-1 FGA to FTA ratio).

Also, it's misleading for you to point out that Lou has a higher turnover rate than Green without mentioning assists and steals. Lou has a higher turnover rate partially because he plays the point sometimes and handles the ball more. His assist-to-turnover ratio is 2.0, average for a point guard but good for an off guard. Green's assist-to-turnover ratio of 1.25 is well below-average for a shooting guard. (By comparison, Iguodala has been consistently at 1.7 for his whole career.) And Lou has a steals-to-turnover rate of about 0.6, higher than Green's 0.5.

That said, I agree that Lou wouldn't be nearly as effective if he played 36 minutes a night. He would shoot more jump shots instead of penetrating (which takes a lot of energy). That's why I favor making Carney the starter and splitting the 2-guard minutes between Carney and Williams. Even if Carney isn't making shots, he contributes steals, blocks, and rebounds (all superior to what Green does). Some people say that Green is good defensively, but I just don't see it. He constantly overcommits to helping in the lane (without actually helping), leaving his man -- often the best shooter on the other team -- wide open for 3's, he often gets beaten backdoor, he doesn't fight through picks, and he's too short to bother most jump shooters. Carney is far from perfect on D (he goes for fakes too much), but I've seen him bother a lot more shots this year than Green.

Note: the Anonymous comment at 11:45 AM was posted by me (don't want to leave a post unattributed).

By the way, as long as im spewing stats, i had to throw this one in because it kinda made me laugh - Reggie Evans is 100% on three pointers this year - on one attempt.

OK. thats all for now.

KM: you beat me to my comments about Green (but good to see you are thinking the same way).

Statman - Great minds think alike, no?

Statman, Empirical evidence aside, we all have our court heroes and villains. (Enjoy yours.) Have asserted my share of reason; reserve right to emotion/distortion. Fandom is an empty town without it.

One point: A turnover is a turnover is a turnover, regardless of how many times a ball is dribbled (The next recorded statistic?) or from what theoretically-numbered position a player is occupying on the court. Sometimes our minds' refineries belch sulphur.

Jumpin'Johnny, fair point re: heroes and villains. To use one of your own phrases (spoken in reference to Iguodala), Green's game is certainly an acquired taste for me (and is currently the equivalent of celery).

On your other point, I have to disagree with the implication. If turnovers are used to measure a player's ballhandling ability or carefulness/carelessness, then they MUST be considered in relation to how often a player handles the ball. Calvin Booth has the lowest turnover rate of any Sixer (and probably one of the lowest in the NBA) -- why? He never touches the ball! Dalembert's turnover rate is lower than Andre Miller's -- does that mean he's a better ballhandler?

More to the point of Green vs. Williams, if one player's primary role is to catch and shoot (with the occasional foray to the basket), while the other's role also includes distributing the ball on the fastbreak and making entry passes, it's to be expected that the first player will have fewer turnovers. If Williams played only 2-guard, your point would be stronger.

You make light of the idea of turnovers-per-dribble, but if there were a stat for turnovers-per-attempted-pass and/or turnovers-per-penetration, I have no doubt that Green would be right up among the leaders. Assist-to-turnover ratio reflects both of those in part, and Green is well below-average, as I mentioned earlier.

Statman, Liked that celery metaphor! Don't have time to reply further. Points taken and considered. Enjoy tonight's game. NJ: .500 at home, desperate for Ws to playoff qualify, lost a close one recently in Philly. Should be an entertaining battle.

I am looking forward to watching Iggy go up against Carter.

I can't believe Willie is gonna be part of the playoff roster. How depressing. I like that he's getting pulled earlier and earlier, but that Daily News headline made me nauseous: "To shake slump, Sixers' Green plans to keep shooting." I hate watching when he's in the game, he belongs in Europe, playing for a last-place team in a 2nd-tier league. Before, I had an overzealous fan's hope that we could make a good run in the playoffs, and maybe reach and win the finals, but Green playing a lot of minutes gives us a 0% chance of that. He should be at the end of the bench next to Lou (Amundson) and Shav. For everyone who's recently and suddenly discovered a secret admiration for Billy King they didn't know they had, remember that he's the one who's dumped Willie Green and his uselessness on us. And even if he busts out for a good game against NJ tonight, it just means that sometimes he doesn't blow, but usually he does, and the upside (downside?) of how much he can blow was on full display in his last game against the Nets. He's ruining this otherwise awesome season.

Sixerzguy:

LOL, that was a great rant. BK was in love with his "finds," Shav, Amundson, Korver and Green, and that is why our roster is filled with these useless players.

Did anyone else see the rumor that King will be the GM of the Knicks working under Walsh from Indiana and keeping Thomas as coach? Good luck with all that, NYC...

sixerzguy equation: Willie Green subtracted from Sixers = Improved Sixers. sixerzguy assessment: Willie Green "usually blows." sixerzguy hedge: could "bust out" for a good game tonight. sixerzguy condition: extremely critical.

Nice win, and good to see Jason get a good run.Question; could we have our future forward combo here already. Watching Thad reminds me of other small forwards that prefer the low post area [C.Natt,B.King,and A.Dantley] to name a few. And if Jason continues to hit the jumper and set those good high screens they may be the perfect match.

Suede, Some have questioned jason's toughness? Now he is our PF of the future? Just draft or sign a PW. If Jason develops into a starter the more the merrier.

By the way, Mo is pumping up Sammy D's 'D'. Seems he has convinced him to stop taking those irrelevant shots. Check out the shooting percentage recently. Good thing!