Deep Sixer

I guess there are two points to the youth movement questions. The first is the assessment of what addition the team is most in need of, and what is the best way to get it. If a competitive season and the current cap space will attract a good power forward this summer, than the team is on the right track. If the best chance at power forward is more likely to be coming from the draft, does the town have enough patience to put off a chance at being elite yet another year?

The second point is the way that younger players are being groomed. Thad's development seems ideal, having been forced to earn his minutes to the point where his talent is now flourishing. I'm still not so sure what the team has in terms of Carney or Smith, and I guess Hill will have to wait until next year.

All that said, there's no denying that the team is on a very exciting roll, which is something no one should ever mess with at this point. Can't wait for the playoffs.

I agree Marc, youth usually only offers future potential, not any type of immediate results.
unless of course you got a kid coming out like a King James, I never seen a kid come out and be an imediate impact like that kid has. No college no problem he is surely a speacil kid. Butthis off season will be both interesting and exciting. I can hardly wait, just hope whoever they pick up has the same hard working level headed mentality that the rest of our guys have.

What's most exciting is watching the "home grown" talent develop. That's why this team should push for playoffs. Losing be damned. Even if they were in the West, we'd still be saying the sixers are up and coming. They are only 5 games under .500. Luckily for them, they play in the weaker East and are in the hunt for the 6 seed. I can tell you, as a 35 year old Sixers fan, I never remember a time when the Sixers won around a rebuilt team of young players. Not the 80's teams, '83 Championship teams. Not Barkley's years, not AIs years. This is certifiably fun! Hell, I dont even remember a succesful fastbreak Sixers team after the 80's. I suggest all Sixers fans, sit back and root these kids on to the playoffs. If you can afford to go to games, then go and root for these kids. Trust, they're young and would definitely feed off of the energy. I dont know about the rest of yall, but I'm gonna sit back and enjoy the rest of the season.

Dbrad - great point about the Sixers' not having a good fastbreaking team in eons. The last good one I can think of was the 89-90 team with Barkley, Hawkins, and Dawkins (a very underrated team that was the Sixers' only post-Doctor division champion other than 00-01). Doug Moe tried to run the break with the 92-93 team, but that team was horrible. Even the 89-90 team, though, didn't have the personnel to run a 4-man break like these Sixers do (the power forward was Mahorn). Seeing two forwards like Iguodala and Young run the break reminds me of the glory days when Doc and Bobby Jones would finish off dishes from Cheeks (maybe that's what Mo has in mind now!).

I!m watching a stud, still in college, dominate two 7 footers on t.v. right now. We have to get K.Love. He adds 5 to 10 wins off the bat next year. Some stuff he did in the first half; pump fake, drop step reverse dunk; ally oop pass from top of the key to teammate for dunk;outlet to opposite foulline for layup; wraparound pass from lowpost for a layup; and finally a puimpfake, go up with his left hand, miss and tapin with his left hand and by the way, all this against two 7 footers, both of which will be N.B.A. players.Marc, we have one veteren in A.Miller and hopefully we add another with our cap room and Iggy will be in his what, 5th. year, next year, we have a good mix. Gimmie some love!!!!

If the Sixers shoot 56 TO 60 perecent or better they might go all the way to NBA FINALS! Do I trade my number one draft pick? Only if the Sixers go to the Conference Finals or Better the NBA Finals. Other than that, NOPE! I thought that is why the sixers traded Korver, to get quality
nba player.

The irony of the Seattle youth movement relative to the Sixers is that if you look at the first 9 guys on both teams in terms of minutes played, the Sixers are a much younger team.

I think the real message regarding this particular topic is how well the 76er coaching staff has done in integrating the youth of the team into a winning rotation. Iguodala has become a "veteran" at 24. Thad Young and Louis Williams are making major contributions and Rodney Carney and Jason Smith have played important roles as well.

One more thing - as talented as Kevin Durant is on the offensive end, I would rather have Thaddeus Young. Young is learning the importance of playing all 94' at the ripe age of 19 and is light years ahead of Durant in that aspect.

Love Thad alot, but Durant has a chance to be a 6!10" version of G.Gervin, I!ll be surprised if he doesn!t average 30 p.p.g. more than once in his career and in college he was a better rebounder and passer than Thad. But I hope you are right!!!

I think resigning Iggy is a given this summer, but the A.Miller/L. Williams situation is going to be interesting. 1] Does A.Miller and his agent express to E.S. they won!t reupp unless we break the bank next year, E.S. has to get a feel for that situation. 2] Does E.S. feel L.Will. is our future point or does he have to use our cap space to address that position[rather than getting a scorer or postplayer]. 3] What does L.Will. think he!s worth? Abig difference between us and Seattle is the p.g. position, Watson was a career backup and we know what A.Miller brings to the table.Does E.S. think a young point guard [Lowry,A.C. Law ?] could be brought in and the team not skip a beat? Don!t think so.

The NBA is not like football where you have to build through the draft. You can make good trades and be a great team. Look at Detroit, Boston, LA Lakers to name a few. Few of their guys were actually drafted by the team they are on now. Kobe, Odom, Gasol for LA. KG, Ray Allen for Boston. Billups, Wallace (rasheed and ben when he was there). All acquired through trades or Free Agency. Even Shaq, drafted by Orlando, was traded before he won a ring. The best thing that could happen to the sixers this year is for the young guys to show promise and catch the eye of another GM, so ed can make a big deal and bring real talent to the team.

I'd be kinda shocked if someone doesn't offer LouWill more than we're willing to match. So, I just don't see him wearing a Sixers uniform next year.

Marc, so true.

Obtaining the RIGHT MIX of veterans with the young core we have here is Ed's challenge, but you need veterans to win.

We have seen what JOE SMITH was able to bring last year, and what ANDRE MILLER has brought this year.

That is why I'm sure Ed is looking to add a VETERAN 4 to this team as top priority even if he needs to trade draft picks and some of our young guys without cutting the core.

Borderline Stiff, good point. Most guys confuse the NFL with the NBA. Thanks for pointing it out. One commonality is that both leagues have a salary cap. Otherwise, there are very little commonalities: guaranteed vs non-guaranteed contracts being on the forefront. In the NFL, there is very little player movement when their contracts are on the cheap, age young, and talent level high. The opposite seems the case in the NBA. Teams have far less control over their destiny in the NBA at this point. If the Sixers become a champ over the next 5 years without some major free agency/trade moves, they will be an anomaly in today's NBA for a team built almost entirely from the ground up through drafts.

Point is, most unlikely to happen without some major moves.

If the Sixers got back into the playoffs, how would the attendance be? I remember the last playoff game, I read about people saying it wasn't loud enough and there were still empty seats.

I dont think the young guys deserve that considering they work as hard as anyone else. They would definitely feed off the energy of a sold out crowd. Hopefully if that event occurs, tix wont cost too much $$$$$.

Excellent post, Marc. History shows that, unless you have LeBron on your team (note to posters from the last thread: Dre is not Lebron-level) you are unlikely to win with youth exclusively.

As we all know, this team needs upgrades at the PF and SG positions at a minimum. If at least one of those upgrades has some veteran experience it will boost this team into a contender for a top 4 playoff seed next year, in my opinion.

How would you rank the Sixers' needs for next year. My ranking is:

1) a 3 point capable shooting guard
2) a PF with a post up game
3) a back up center who can push Sammy
4) an instant offense bench player, probably a 2 guard.

I am enjoying this year the most of any season since they made the championship run in 00-01.

Suede, completely agree with you...Kevin Love is going to be a great player in the pro's because he's so smart and already has a variety of NBA-ready moves. And what's even better is he's not going to be one of the first 5 picks (unless he lights the NCAA tourney on fire, which is always possible); he's not an athletic beast and so some teams are going to pass over him for some 7 ft. European who looks great posting up on a chair.

KLove's got great post moves and understands how to run a fast break off a rebound...he would turn this team into Phoenix East.

Doesn't it get utterly painful that you still have to even discuss this? The idea that people out there still want the Sixers to lose is mind-boggling. It seems that Sixers fans want to perpetually root for the potential that comes from having a rookie. They want rookies and championships without any respect to the process of becoming a winner. A process that the Sixers are progressing in, in case you haven't noticed.

Sure Marc, it's easy to say Sixer fans shouldn't hope for them to lose, now that they've climbed to 7th in the East. I've seen and heard practically universal agreement with that sentiment in the last week or two. But that's b/c they are showing great team-play that they weren't showing earlier in the season, when they were, frankly, a mess. With the NBA draft set up as it is, the fact remains that a team going nowhere is better off at the top of the lottery.

Remember Miami before D.Wade, Cleveland before Lebron, Nawlins before Chris Paul, Utah before Deron Williams, Orlando before D.Howard, Portland before B.Roy, or even the Sixers before Iverson. Players coaches should always be encouraged to try their best to win, but losing alot is rewarded handsomely b/c one player can make such a difference.

Personally, my idea would be to lock in the number of ping pong balls based on standings after 55 or 60 reg season games. This would negate the temptation to tank, b/c no one tanks until the playoffs are out of reach.

Agree with KG, 76ers shouldn't try to loose but it is hard to go from the middle of the pack to championship contender without a stud draft pick.

Disagree with Borderline Stiff and Xing who think that a championship team can be built through free agency. Free agency in the NBA is more difficult than the NFL because if the FA doesn't work out, you can't cut him and are stuck with the salary for the life of the contract.

To elaborate on the importance of the draft. From 1991 to present, 17 seasons, 16 of the championship teams have been led by Jordam Olajuwon, O'Neal or Duncan. Jordan was the 3rd overall pick, Olajuwon the 2nd, O'Neal the 1st and Duncan the 1st. (If you want to add David Robinson to that list for early Spurs championships you can - he was a 1st overall pick too.)

The only one of those players to win a championship with a team other than the team that originally drafted him was O'Neal who left Orlando as a free agent for LA and was subsequently traded to Miami.

Would Philly have an opportunity to land a championship caliber free agent as the Lakers did? NO. New York and LA have a big advantage in that they are major media markets and the championship caliber free agent could make much more through endorsements in those markets than he could in Philly. Florida teams also have an advantage in that they does not have personal income tax (not to mention city wage tax) making them much more lucrative destinaiton for players.

Could we trade for a championship caliber player like Miami did with O'Neal? Possibly. The opportunity to trade for a championship caliber player is rare and the team trading said player is going to want a lot in return. This will deplete the teams assets and likely lead to a one year run (i.e. Miami); not multiple championships like the Bulls, Rockets, Lakers or Spurs.

The goal for the Sixers is to win a championship right? We will not be able to land a free agent who will be able to lead us to a championship. So, in order to win a championship we need to draft a championship caliber player.

The draft is so far off...but I would love to see Roy hibbert in a Sixers uniform. Sixers would have their point of the future in Lou, Small forward in thad, center in Hibbert.

If you want to build a team that isn't a flash in the pan, you build with young players, not old vets.

We tried that with Chris Webber, and learned that he wasn't the player we needed and he was so old that he was stealing money.

Any serviceable 20-10 PF is not going to come to the Sixers though free agency. Teams don't let players like that go, unless they decided to throw in the towel and retool, like Minnesota did with KG.

Tom in the post above mentioned that same logic. To win a Championship you have to draft a championship caliber player. There aren't too many of those that become available outside of the lottery.

The team has one hope now that it's risen so high in the Eastern Conference, which is that their young players will continue to improve to the point where they can compete. Maybe Hill or Randolph or Amundsen can play at the 4 or 5.

We're not going to get the player we need through free agency, and it doens't look like we're going to get a high enough pick to push us up in the standings. Welcome to NBA purgatory.

The decision between tank and "win now" boils down to a simple question: Do we have enough assets to win a championship? Not make the playoffs, not get to the conference finals, not be competitive, but can these (current or future) players win it all?

Can Thad be our superstar? Will 'Dala be the supporting star? And then can Miller or Williams carry the point?

If the answer is yes, then all we need to do is watch and enjoy every victory. And pick up a piece or two during the off-season.

If the answer is no, then it's best to just trade off anybody of value and rebuild through the draft.

IMHO, the teams today with a legitimate shot to win the championship are:

San Antonio, LA Lakers, Boston, Detroit, Phoenix, maybe Dallas.

Dallas drafted Nowitzki with the 9 pick, and the other teams besides San Antonio have been built through trades. Nash, KG, Billups, Hamilton, Wallace, Kobe, Odom, have all been acquired.

Drafting Jordan, Shaq or Duncan happens once a decade and there is a whole lot of luck involved. The best way to become a championship contender is through trades then fill in pieces with free agency, in my opinion. The best way for the 76ers to be a player in trades, is to have quality players to move. This perception of quality players comes from winning.

Rick, Borderline Stiff, you guys have good points. As Rick said - We're not going to pick up a quality low-post player with the $10M we have under the cap. So, as Borderline Stiff said, we have to make a trade. But that's where A. Miller comes in to play, along with the cap space. Combine the two and hopefully you can find a trading partner for a low-post presence.
Then you still need some help at guard, preferably with all the qualities of Magic Johnson... big, can pass, shoot, defend... but I digress. Hopefully, we'll still have enough room under the cap and can use our draft picks in a trade to get a good PG (please don't take my Magic comment too seriously, I know he's a once in a life time type player).

Borderline, all the teams in your list were built, directly or indirectly, through the draft.

The Lakers drafted Kobe; just because Charlotte officially made the pick doesn't mean it wasn't West who selected him. And before Memphis handed them Gasol for nothing they were headed to the playoffs with Bynum, who they drafted.

Boston got Allen because they gave up the #5 overall pick, and got KG because they had a stud in Jefferson, who they drafted.

Phoenix's big move was clearly signing Nash as a FA, but they had a core in place with Amare, Marion, and Barbosa, all of whom they drafted.

Dallas drafted Nowitzki, Howard, and Harris, which was the core of their Finals team. They only traded for Kidd a couple weeks ago, and the jury is out on whether they improved themselves.

San Antonio, as you said, was built through the draft.

Detroit is a complete anomaly. But I suppose if you have arguably the savviest team-builder ever in Joe Dumars, constructing a perennial contender from other teams' cast-offs, you can afford to go against the current.

It's a bit circular to say trades are more important to building a team than drafting, because it's only by drafting quality players that you have anything of value to trade.

Anyway...

None of this suggests the Sixers should "tank." You might tank when you're solidly out of the playoffs and want to add ping-pong balls, but you certainly don't tank when you're solidly IN the playoffs and have a shot to move up.

At this point, we should actually be rooting for them to do as well as possible, since if they play well in the playoffs, that would only increase the value our players, which would make them more valuable in a trade.

At this point, the guys we have are far too good to be the worst team in the league without trying to be. They are probably right around the low end of average - just what their record says they are. So, unless, as Dervin mentioned, we blow the whole thing up (for the second time in as many years), there's not really much sense in joining the pool of teams competing for the worst record in the league.

Lets be honest here, just as there is a playoff race every year, there is increasingly a race to be worst among teams who decide to blow it up. So even in tanking, there is competition. And even if you win, there is lady luck to contend with when the ping pong balls are being drawn. So if we're going to compete for something, i want it to be wins.

So if the question is do we tank, the answer is no(and always has been in my mind). I think the right question is how do we build our team, and the answer to that is like Detriot did.

As a few posters pointed out, all but one championships in recent memories have been won by teams with a few of the best players in recent memory. So, It is only logical for teams without one of the best players in the game to use the Detriot model. That does mean adding specific targeted veterans, but in a financially responsible way. It means you dont overspend, and you purge your roster of bad contracts whenever necessary. It means you need certain KINDS of players. You need a team full of guys who will share the ball, who can play at least passably well on both sides of the court, who have high basketball IQ's, who play DISCIPLINED ball, and above all who are team first guys. Finally, it means having some patience. One cannot expect to pull in all the right guys in one offseason, which is why i keep fliching when people propose those huge multi-player deals that purport to remake us in one fell swoop. Managing the cap properly so you can make key targeted additions EACH YEAR is crucial.

The reason this is not often done is because it is very difficult. It requires a GM both disciplined enough to manage the cap and with enough vision to get the right guys. It requires an ownership who will have faith in the GM during the process, and of course a coach to bring out the best in the guys. Most teams who set out to build this way get impatient and waste years of hard work on one or two bad deals...here's hoping we get it right. We certainly have a good start.

Side point, with the exception of a few emotional days, the level of discussion here is really high. Its actually kind of funny that a bunch of (mostly) dudes sitting around talking ball often wind up sounding more intelligent and respectful than a lot other boards i've seen...

KM:

You're certainly right that we're not going to be getting a top pick in the draft anytime soon. We have too many good players to be that bad.

At this point we need to develop what we have. Both Thad and Dre have definite all star potential in their future. And I, for one, have not given up on Lou. He's only 21 and playing in what is essentially his rookie year - it was only this time last year he started to get PT.

This is a league of stars, and that's three players with star potential, so how will they continue to develop? Will Thad and Lou get stronger and improve their jumpers? Will Dre improve his consistency and aggression, and take it to the next level? If the answer to those question is yes then that's half the battle.

KM,

You're absolutely right about this board being awesome. All the ESPN ones, and other sports websites' have way too many people just goofing off and posturing, or not that many people are interested. I hope this board stays this way, but let me warn everyone: if the Knicks ever get better, get ready...

Well, assuming that the path i described is the right on to take, i think the good news is wont need to worry about the knicks getting better anytime soon :)

One thing that nobody has brought up in looking for that veteran 4 is crazy Isiah Thomas and NY. You wait and see if Ed does not get one of them! They have a glut of good 4's there and Isiah loves to draft. I could see Isiah trading one for some picks and salary relief.

Along with a mix of young and veteren players we need to get players with a high basketball I.Q. Thad has really helped in this department. Before A.Miller got here this was not a smart team. If A.Miller is traded we need more than Iggy and Thad to be aware of how to "play" the right way. If I!m E.S. I do what it takes to add K.Love to the mix. He just seems to make good decisions on the floor. Sam is what Sam is, that!s not gonna change. L.Williams also seems to have a good head on his shoulders, hope he gets a chance to be the starting point because if Iggy is our 2 and Thad our 3 we may need at least as much scoring as A.M iller is giving us now from the point.

I agree that these last posts are real quality and encourages more of the same.

If the Sixers make the playoffs, it's good. The NBA needs to be relevant again in this city -- and it would be great experience for the team. A playoff win or two would be a bonus.

Here's what I would do in the off season:

We're fine at guard. Make Miller happy w/ a contract, Green is getting better, Lou Will has great and exciting potential and Carney is starting to show a little something.
iggy can even be moved to guard if need be.

We're very good at the 3. Iggy and Thad have a great future.

At center we're not strong enough, Dalembert is what he is -- a keeper but just average.
I think Andres Biedrins is a restricted F/A.
We should throw our cap money at him and try to get him away from GS. He is young, very athletic, runs the court well, would fit with sixers style. This two-headed center would strengthen this position greatly -- and push Dala.

The 4 would not be such dire straits with a stronger center now so --- E.S. needs to try to trade up in the draft as high as possible to get the best available PF. (KLove?)
Then this rookie would be in the mix w/ J. Smith, Herb H. Shav to be a starter and Evans off the bench.

Then we watch the team develope

shut the #### up!

Thats right Sam tell them what they can do with their personell assessments...Kevin Love?! He is the complete opposite of how this team was built. He's slow and unathletic...I dont even know how he got on ucla he should have played for don chaney in the late 90's he's so slow...He might even be too slow for temple..charles shackleford jr with a post game...nah..we can do better than that...I'd rather keep Jason Smith and let him develop like the others are and have..Kevin Love wont eat nobody's shot like Smith can. Why would yall even want love on our team he's like the ANTI-SIXER. Seems like alot of yall just want to big in unathletic bums to fill for the players yall hate so much..but guess what? They dont fit the bill and we are winning. Hate Sam all you want he is growing..GREAT WIN SIXERS!!!

Its funny how alot of the guys that are so supportive of the team "NOW" days ago wanted to trade our whole team away for a bunch of bums...names like Nazr Muhammad Andrew Bogus come 2 mind...Everybody seems to be singing a new song..no more fire Cheeks chants..No more Billy King is a dumb gm. no more i'd trade iggy for a cup of columbian coffee..no more Jim Mora "Playoffs?!"...Nevermore...

Yeah..so who said they'd trade Iggy for cough tayshawn prince?

I'll still say BK was a "dumb GM"!!

After watching tonights game you put Chris Wilcox on this team and we are challenging for the 4th or 5th seed. He showed a lot tonight and he would be great next to Sammy.

Because you're a dumb GM "Angry house wife mad for no reason at all" lol

Marc,

On the game note on ESPN.com, they quote Sammy as saying that he wished the Sixers hired a true big man coach and that he would be "way better" if there was one. This is pretty shocking news to me. I have never heard anything about this.

I agree that Dalembert needs coaching. His low-post game is non-existent. Who works with him, anyway? I know they had Moses Malone working with him a little in the past. Could you give us your take on this. Inquiring minds want to know.

And I wish a Knick fan would come in here talking trash...Knicks fans exist? I thought Madison Sqare Garden was full of fans of the opposing team and a couple of lebron james hopefuls