In the Mix

Scorsese has examined similar issues of American identity in music movies like The Last Waltz (1978) and No Direction Home: Bob Dylan (2002) that he’s explored in his violent dramas. The 65 year old director, also oversaw the production of the 2003 PBS series The Blues, and he has a Bob Marley documentary in the works.

But Scorsese never succeeded in corralling the Stones until he shot two concerts at Manhattan’s Beacon Theater in November 2006 for Shine A Light, which features Jack White of the White Stripes, bluesman Buddy Guy and Christina Aguilera, who Jagger takes particular pleasure in dueting with, on “Live With Me.“

It’s a concert film, with a smattering of fresh and archival footage, that captures the wrinkly but still virile-sounding band - who’ve been the focus of more than a dozen previous movies - mixing classics such as "Satisfaction” and “All Down the Line” with more obscure choices like Muddy Waters’ “Champagne & Reefer.“

Scorsese talked about Shine A Light, his obsession with the Stones, and the way he uses music in his movies, on the phone from Boston, where he’s making a movie based on a Dennis Lehane novel that will either be called Ashcliffe or Shutter Island, and star Leonardo DiCaprio, Mark Ruffalo, Ben Kingsley, Michelle Williams and Emily Mortimer. “I’m shooting, and I have to go see the rushes,” he said, in rapid fire, staccato rhythm. “It’s a little hectic.”

Question: So you're about the same age as the guys in the Stones.

Answer: Apparently, yeah. I never think of that, you know. They're the Rolling
Stones and they're still performing, and we go see them.

Question: But you came of age listening to them.

Answer: That's true, that can't be denied. I grew up listening to them and still do. So much of what I do in film comes from listening to their music over the years. I think I first saw them perform in 1970. So a lot of their music became part of my DNA. I use music a lot to infuse, or inspire, I should say, scenes, camera movements, the way I shoot a picture, the energy that goes into a film. So a lot of that was done in my head. Way before I saw them perform. A lot of that informed Mean Streets, a lot of that informed the pictures I made since then.

Question: What about the Stones was so powerful for you, as opposed to Dylan, or the Beatles, or Muddy Waters. What did the Stones have?

Answer: Well I mean the other three you mentioned, of course, are extraordinary. And I come to Dylan, actually from a different, a conservative working class background, so I didn't hear the folk music. I first heard "Like A Rolling Stone,” then went back and heard the other stuff. Muddy Waters it took me a number of years to find. And I think the Rolling Stones led me to Muddy Waters.

When I was growing up, the first music I remember hearing was Django Reinhardt, the Hot Club of France, Stephane Grapelli. My father's records. And I remember seeing images coming from those sounds. It's the same thing with the Stones. Jagger's vocal, in a way, sounded like an instrument. With the guitars, the percussion. Each song is a separate narrative.

And a lot of it, too, was that in the late 50s, early 60s I got to see the Threepenny Opera in New York, off Broadway. Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht. And I became fascinated by that music and listened to it constantly, and know it by heart. I was living in the Threepenny Opera, I was living in that world.

Question: And the same thing happened with the Stones?

Answer. Their music hit me the same way. The music and the lyrics and the message and the tone. It had a street truth to it.

Question: There’s something darkly powerful about the Stones, in the late '60s, especially.

Answer: Yeah, yeah. And into the ‘70s too, and even in some instances on the later stuff. There's a song on their latest album, "Back Of My Hand," which is quite strong, really strong.

Question: Do you know about Sway, Zachary Lazar's novel about the Stones in the '60s?

Answer: I have a copy of it. I haven't read it yet. I have stacks of books which I intend to read while shooting, which is impossible. [Laughs].

Question: It's the Satanic-era Stones, but it also tells the story of [filmmaker] Kenneth Anger [whose 1965 gay-biker experimental film Scorpio Rising uses music by Ricky Nelson, Elvis Presley, Bobby Vinton, Ray Charles and Martha and the Vandellas].

Answer: Well, Kenneth Anger’s Scorpio Rising was the one I saw in the early ‘60s in a special screening in a loft when it was prohibited. And it was the first time I realized you could have access to popular music for a soundtrack. Because at that time, we couldn't use the music of our time, because we couldn't pay the rights.

And yet, I knew that if I got to make a film and I had to rely on conventional scoring, I couldn't do it. I mean, I did when I used Bernard Hermann in Taxi Driver. And since then I've worked with Elmer Bernstein and Howard Shore. But primarily, my soundtracks are known for the music that I put together myself. I could never fully feel comfortable with a scored film, because I don't come from that era.

{But] you can use music that you grew up with. Music from your own past. Kubrick’s use of classical music in 2001 was another indication that you could do that. There are no rules. For example, in Casino, we used music from other films, from Contempt, by George Delerue, and mixed it with a drum solo by Ginger Baker. Julian Schnabel, in The Diving Bell & the Butterfly did that. He uses the music from 400 Blows.

Question: That's a great movie, isn't it?

Answer: Its wonderful. And so, you know, I'm thinking that way. And of course, Scorpio Rising was a short film. Only 25 minutes. And it was only on a certain circuit. It was hardly shown. Though it is available from Mystic Fire video.

Question: So Anger was profoundly influential on you in that way?

Answer: Absolutely. He's the one. He just made it clear you can do it. Somehow you can get away with it.

Though quite honestly [laughs] you can’t get away with it. Because you’ve got to pay. I gotta tell you, in Mean Streets, we had “Jumpin' Jack Flash,” “Tell Me,” and “The Last Time,“ and I had to lose “The Last Time,” because we couldn't afford it. And actually, that soundtrack we put together for Mean Streets in 1973, if you did it today, it would cost millions. We got it away with it very cheaply at the time. Nobody was doing it.

Question: Is there a typical kind of scene or mood that a Stones song is perfect for on screen?

Answer: It depends, but there's a certain drive in their songs. A certain provocation. A kind of energy. Certainly an edge. You can go back to “The Spider and the Fly” [from 1965], which is like Kurt Weill to me. All the way up to “Gimme Shelter,” which is as pertinent today as when I was first written. Up to “Back of My Hand.”

Question: Talk to me about using the camera to show the faces of musicians. I watched The Last Waltz last night, and I was thinking about the way Levon Helm and Robbie Robertson looked then, and the way they look now. And the same thing with Mick and Keith.

Answer: It shows you a life that's been lived. And a life that's living still. In the process of living, that exists in performance, that exists in their music. And it reads on their faces, it reads in their
movements, their bodies, their very souls are up there on screen. You look at Keith's hands as he plays the guitar, you look at Jagger’s eyes. The lines in his face.

There's a contrast provoked by the use of the archival footage. But that's part of the journey, isn't it? I'm not intending to tell the history of the Rolling Stones. That would take five or six hours. It would be a terrific movie if you could get it all.

Question: How do you think of this movie in relation to your other music movies?
It's really a different kettle of fish than the Last Waltz…

Answer: … Or No Direction Home. It really is. But for me, all I can say it was an obsession to get the Rolling Stones in performance on film. I simply wanted to do my best for their music. It's something I always wanted to do.

Question: So you’ve been carrying this around with you for a while?

Answer: Oh, for many years. Since I first loved their music.

Question: But when you finally got to do it, you came to it at a point where there are no shortage of Stones movies.

Answer: Well, the only thing you can do is show the music. That's it. My editor went through 400 hours of archival footage, and I went thought 40 hours of it. And basically they were asked the same questions …. ‘How long are you going to do this? How long are you going to sing?’ So, if you like the Stones, you go with them in performance, because that’s the bottom line. That’s the final statement.

And you know, you can listen to Frank Sinatra do "All Or Nothing At All," with the Tommy Dorsey Orchestra. And you can hear him twenty or thirty years later with Nelson Riddle or Billy May, and then twenty years after that. His voice mellows. His face changes. It's Sinatra. But it's different phases of Sinatra. One doesn't invalidate the others. And now, we have this with rock and roll. Should rock and roll only be for people in there 20s, or their teens? I'm not sure. Dylan is still performing, Neil Young is still doing it. Joni Mitchell. So you catch them at this moment in time.

Question: Is Jagger hard to get to know?

Answer: Not necessarily. Most of my time is spent working these days. Making my own films. So mostly, it's in meetings. We don't quote hang out unquote.

Question: In Shine A Light, Keith seems more like an open book.

Answer: They're certainly different personalities. You can see it on stage in the film. Yet together the group creates something unique and singular. I don't know Keith as well. I see the way Mick works, he’s one of the producers in the film. I work closely with him, we connect that way.

Question: It seems that Mick thinks, so Keith and Ronnie can feel.

Answer: Maybe. I couldn’t say that, but maybe you could make that observation. I just see it come together somehow, I'm not sure how. {Laughs].

Question: Has the Oscar made a difference for you?

Question: I just really had to go back to work. The Oscar was well appreciated. There's no doubt about it… It’s helped to a certain extent. But it's about making good film. And I'm not even quite sure what that means anymore…

Answer: What are your favorite music movies?

Hmm. Good question. I could name a few. I like Godard's One Plus One [which focuses on the recording of “Sympathy For The Devil” in 1968] because it shows you the song coming together. My favorites… [Pauses]. Well, I worked on Woodstock, so that's hard to talk about.

But the one that goes way back, the key film – that Jagger appreciated, too - was Jazz on a Summer Day. Bert Stern. Look at that. Late 50s, Newport Jazz Festival. Probably the best music film, I think, ever made. I just love it. He got the camera positions perfect. Wonderful performances by Anita O'Day, Louis Armstrong, Jack Teagarden, Chico Hamilton. Even Chuck Berry is in there. The music is extraordinary. But also it's about the town of Newport, a piece of Americana. A time capsule. It's the purest of the concert films, I think. I mean there's Monterey Pop, there are so many others. But Jazz on a Summer's Day is the key one. I may see some others on TV. But the one I go back to, and become inspired by, and study, actually, is that picture.