The Zo Zone

This is too much AL East talk on a Phillies blog. But if we're going to stick with the AL East, let's talk about Mariano Rivera. Now that Torre's gone, he's more likely to go elsewhere to finish his career.

What do you guys think the odds are that he'll consider Philadelphia?

Welcome back Todd, hope you got some rest on your day(s) off.
Hope Rivera would consider Phils, but he sure will be expensive. Maybe having Gordon here will help him lean towards us.
Moving Myers back is a nice idea but it's not like he's a 20 game winner. Do we go for the better starter with the money or move Myers and spend it on a closer? And still have money for a 3rd baseman. Can we expect Gordon and Myers to get thru a whole season without hitting the DL? I think the answer to the last question is no, so my vote is we make a push for him.
I'm more than a little concerned with signing free agents and losing draft choices. It's not like we are loaded with prospects down on the farm. Gillick has to come up big this winter.

Give Rivera the big bucks. Myers is better than Shilling, at this point, in their careers. So put Myers, back in rotation. Who's the next Kyle Kendrick, down on the farm ? Free agent pitchers , the success rate, in my opinion, is very risky. All we need, is another Eaton, to weigh down, our budget . Also,the other big risk free agents, are the players, coming off of career years . You very rarely, get the bang for your buck. Just ask the Mets. Please,there is nothing worse, than paying someone on the decline in their careers. No SCHILLING ! Put the money into the farm system...

Spend the money on pitching. Third Base? A cheap and productive option would be signing someone to platoon with Dobbs. Maybe Fernando Tatis? He had a great year at NO with 27 homers.

Did I just read from someone that the Phillies should sign Fernando Tatis to platoon at 3rd with Dobbs? Fernando Tatis? Maybe if it was 1999! He had exactly 0 AB's in '07, 56 AB's in '06 and the same amount of AB's that I had in the bigs in '04 and '05 combined...that would be 0 in case you were wondering. Sometimes I wonder where some of these ideas come from. Instead of Tatis, how about we give Chris Sabo a call and see if he's doing anything.

I just spit water all over my keyboard when I saw the "Fernando Tatis Option" mentioned. I think the offseason priorities should be:

1. Resign Aaron Rowand
2. Sign 2 pitchers
3. We're stuck with Adam Eaton and Wes Helms: get them healthy and ready to play.
4. Get Brett Myers in shape and ready to close all year.
5. Hire chiropractor (based on 3 million in attendence I think Phils can swing it.)

Boy am I bored!

No baseball and the videos I ordered from Proaction Video never arrived!
They must be lost in th mail. They were recommended by my friend Michael Vick!

anyhow- Hopefully after tomorrow- your filly flirtation with "the bloody sock PR machine" will be as far away as my fighting birdie videos seem to be.

Gotta go- Hank Steinbrenners on the other line- -seems he cant remember that I am not the YANKEE MASCOT-NOT A BRIGHT BULB THIS Hank!

Mr. MET

Boy Todd, I surprised someone as seemingly knowledgable as you would turn in to a Joe Torre psychophant. It must be your youth.

Joe Torre is a good manager, but not one of the all-time greats.

Torre had a losing record as a manager before joining the Yankees. So I ask you, would he have been as "personally successful as a manager" had he been managing in Kansas City or Pittsburg?

I can't stand the Yankees or George Steinbrenner, but I'm astute enough to understand that without George Steinbrenner's money Joe Torre's record as a manager was one of failure.

Joe Torre had been a failure in "Yankeeland" the last several years, by the standards that they employ - fair, realistic or not. He was paid a lot of money to see his team get eliminated in the first round, more that twice what the next highest guy was getting paid.

Now, you can argue that the Yankees getting eliminated was not Torre's fault, that it was some other reason (injuries, personnel, etc.), but Torre's salary was predicated on the assumption that he would manage the team to the WS every year. Otherwise, why pay that kind of money to any manager?

You and he can complain that it was a "crappy" offer or "an insult", but if I were George Steinbrenner I would be insulted that he expected the same kind of money for underperforming to Yankee standards.

Players who don't perform have been known to take pay cuts when their contracts are up, so why should a manager be any different?

You and all the other Torre apologists need make the distinction between assigning 'greatness' to someone managing a team of all-stars to the playoffs every year, and sometimes winning the WS - with the highest payroll in the game, and labeling a 'loser' someone toiling in a small market and and losing - with a pittance for a payroll.

Is Torre really a better manager than Buddy Bell, Ned Yost, or Joe Maddon? We'll never know unless they're given the opportunity to manage in the Bronx. Even Lou Pinella finished last when he was in Tampa Bay. Is he so bad a manager that he would have finished last when he was managing the Yankees during those same years?

I think you're view of the "crappy" offer that Torre received (still the highest $$$ in the game) is clouded by your distaste (which I share) for George Steinbrenner and the arrogance of the Yankee organization's entitlement mentality.

But remember, without George Steinbrenner, Joe Torre "the Great" wouldn't exist.

Through his payroll George Steinbrenner literally bought Joe Torre a ticket to the HOF. Torre should be greatful as well as "insulted".

AWH, where have you been hiding ? That was right on the money. We live in an era that judges success on who spends the most money. How shallow is that ? Another shining example would be, Mr Francona ! Hall of Famer, in basketball, Phil Jackson. How's the Lakers doing these days, with their HOF coach ? Players win championships. Money gets the players.. Joe Torre is personable,likeable, and media friendly. Let's not kid ourselves, that goes a long way.

I guess my Tatis on the cheap suggestion was a little over the top. All Wes Helms is going to do is hold back this team. Stick a fork in him he's done. I hope the Phillies don't go after Mike Lowell. With our luck he would come here next season and be worse than Helms. Lowell is hit or miss. I don't like a trade for Atkins or free agent signing of Feliz either. And by the way, Costanzo ain't the answer next year, as of today Costanzo is getting eaten alive in the Arizona Fall League. IMO, the best fit at third base for the Phillies is trying to trade for Adrian Beltre. He has two seasons left on his contract and was available last winter, but who knows what Seatle is going to do since he had a fairly good 2007 season.

You guys are missing the point on Torre. It wasn't necessarily the 5 million dollars (which left him highest paid manager in baseball still) that made it an insult, it was that it was only a 1 year deal. No manager ever signs a contract to be a lame duck. Not to mention the thought that he needs incentives is a joke.

Also, I don't think you guys could be further from the truth when saying he needed Steinbrenner's money to be successful. If you remember correctly, when they were winning championships in the late 90s, they did not have an overly bloated payroll. In 1996 their payroll was 53 million, still the highest but only by a few million. Torre was applauded from bringing National League style of baseball to the Yankees. He had them stealing bases, bunting, etc.

I think it is no coincidence that once their payroll broke 100 million they have yet to win a World Series. George abandoned Torre's approach of role players, NL style of ball and tried to build a team of superstars. For that reason Torre deserves all the credit. He was winning with a legit payroll on a realistic team full of good players and role players, not overloaded with overpaid superstars.

Jay, the highest payroll is the highest payroll, and Torre benefited from that. Those Yankee teams had their young core in place, but they also had several high priced free agents, especially on the pitching staff. No big $$$, no HOF for Joe T.

No one is saying he's not a good manager. I'm simply saying that Steinbrenner deserves as much or more credit for Torre's "success" as Torre does, and Torre's comments displayed a great deal of ingratitude. Did Torre write the paychecks?

Furthermore, Torre is probably upset because if he manages somewhere else some of the veneer will come off "the legend of Joe". He won't enjoy the same level of success elsewhere, AND HE KNOWS IT. His only option to preserve his legacy is to go into and STAY in broadcasting.

Where I think the Yankees erred in this whole saga is by making a offer in the first place.

They should have just told Torre they were planning to move in another direction, and didn't feel he, or any manager, was worth $7.5 MM unless the team was making it to the WS every year. And make no mistake, money DID have something to do with it.

And, do you know something? No manager IS worth that kind of money, IMO, unless his team does make it to the WS every year. Even then that level of compensation is questionable, for someone who only affects a linited number of games, especially in the AL.

Don't feel sorry for poor Joe Torre. He's become a multi-millionaire and HOF manager. He should have thanked Steinbrenner along with his other comments.

Signing Schilling will be good for the Phils if it were to happen. I don't think the Sox will let him walk away though.

The Phillies need to land someone that will keep up with Cole Hamels next year with at least 15-20 wins. With the dud Freddie Garcia gone, that opens the door for a nice acquisition. It should have been done already. Gillick sounds like he can't sign any pitcher, if I own the Phils I tell him to go out and find a stud starter period, no excuses. I don't like a lame duck GM, who announced he's leaving after next season right in the middle of the Phillies playoff run. What was he trying to do, steal the Phillies thunder and provide distractions? I didn't hear too much said about this in the media, the timing of these annoucements by Gillick was terrible. Offer Joe Torre the GM job here, he's a quality stand up guy.

Torre a GM?????? Gimme some of what your smokin' And they cant sign anybody until the series is over and players actually file to be free.