The Zo Zone

Did we give up to much on this trade? Couldnt they have given up Roberson and not Bourne? If Roberson takes over the fourth outfielder role, he better learn to catch all those balls he dropped in Atlanta!! And wasnt Costanzo the future at 3rd base??? Brads save % wasn't very good last year, and he hasn't been the healthiest guy around...here we go again!!

Bourn and Victorino were probably their only legitimate pieces to trade for some pitching. I doubt anyone would give you anything for Roberson.

Todd, I don't know what Lidge's salary is but since they've essentially filled holes in their rotation and bullpen with this one deal, do you think this increases the odds that they will be able to re-sign Rowand?

They have to re-sign Rowand now don't they?

This is a trade made by a team with a gaping hole in their pitching AND who believes that they have a shot next year. Bourne and Costanzo--the Phillies future--for a 31-year-old guy who's been a disappointment as a closer. Throwing the dice. Big gamble. Plus it would kill me if Ed Wade gets over on us in this one. Just kill me!

Great move.

Lidge's numbers from the second half of last season are very promising. He's got the stuff and it seems like a change of scenery and the passage of time will probably eliminate the Pujols Incident.

Costanzo wasn't a realistic ML prospect (just take a look at his numbers in the AFL this year). He was only highly ranked within the Phils system because Ed Wade left the Phils' prospect cupboard bare.

Bourn's defense, speed and cheap salary will be missed, but he's not a great hitter. This helps us avoid the overpriced pitching market, which SHOULD allow us to sign a legitimate CF (ideally, Rowand).

Can you say Ryne Sandberg? Can you say Julio Franco? Mark my words...this is a bad trade. Bourn is going to light it up and have a great career - and it won't be in Philly.

Can you say Ryne Sandberg? Can you say Julio Franco? Mark my words...this is a bad trade. Bourn is going to light it up and have a great career - and it won't be in Philly.

This is a great trade. They did not give up too much. If anything, they pulled one over on Ed Wade here. They get a legit closer for a young speedy outfielder who doesn't have that great of a bat. The other pieces don't really matter. Costanzo is not a good prospect. He is a long shot to have a productive MLB career. Plus I much prefer having Myers back in the rotation.

I never thought I would say this but great job Ed Wade!!!

What this screams is that the Phils really wanted Schilling in the rotation, and when he went back to Boston putting Myers in the rotation was plan B. As it has been said repeatedly, there just aren't starters out there for the getting. The Phils have a proven starter in Myers.

At least with Lidge you're getting proven talent... This isn't Wes Helms, Rod Barajas, Adam Eaton, etc. If he's healthy - I assume the homework has been done - he should be on par at least, and superior at best, to Myers as a closer.

The acquisition is sound, assuming Lidge can be expected to bounce a little from the injury issues. What remains to be seen is if the cost was reasonable. Geary was expendable. Costanzo was iffy but has potential. Bourn was extremely valuable to last year's team and may develop into quite a star - hate to see him go. But you have to give something up to get this.

This trade was about getting Myers back in the rotation, which is very smart. Even Myers is a better option than Schilling, although I would have liked to have both of them.

With Bourn gone, the assumption is that they will work hard to re-sign Rowand. That is the smart play there. So in essence, they traded Bourn to gain a starter. They could not have found such a deal anywhere else.

Costanzo, at best, will not be ready for the majors for two years if at all. The Phillies need to add guys who are established now.

Geary is a good guy, but very up and down. No big loss.

Costanzo. Who knows, but if he was anywhere close to playing in the bigs, don't you think he would be have been here by now.

Bourn. He will be missed, but a very reasonable piece to give up for this trade.

We get:

A closer (and being away from Houston can only help his head)

A starter (since Myers moves back to the rotation)

anddddd we don't have to give up our 1st round draft pick for signing a class A free agent.

Thumbs up for me.

I like it, it fills three needs in one shot, and, they didn't give up Victorino.

Now, what about getting another starter?
What are they going to give up in a trade for him?

I thought Pat's strength was pulling off trades but hasn't done real well signing free agents.
Wasn't Wade the one always getting screwed in trades? Do you think that would really change starting with this trade? Only a Phillies fan would think that.

I like it, it fills three needs in one shot, and, they didn't give up Victorino.

Now, what about getting another starter?
What are they going to give up in a trade for him?

I thought Pat's strength was pulling off trades but hasn't done real well signing free agents.
Wasn't Wade the one always getting screwed in trades? Do you think that would really change starting with this trade? Only a Phillies fan would think that.

I guess what this also means is....if they don't resign Rowand, are you ok with Werth being pretty much your every day RF?

Rowand and Cabrera next!!!!!!

I really like the move .. I think Lidge will benefit from a change of scenery and will slide nicely into the back of the pen.
I worry that Gillick will go into the season with an OF of Burrell, Victorino and Werth .... I assume they won't go with those three.
Maybe this means Rowand or Hunter are options.
I wouldn't be too upset with another starter in case Kendrick is a fraud or Eaton continues to be Eaton.

I think it is a good trade. Moving Myers back to the starting rotation gives the Phils a great one / two punch in Hamels and Myers. I will not miss Geary. I'm also ok with giving up Bourn. I would rather trade him than Victorino who has more pop in his bat. I think Costanzo was struggling in the minors anyway so why not trade him while you can. The Phils will now have to either resign Rowand or find another outfielder. Overall, a good trade unless Lidge is horrible during the season a la Eric Gagne in Boston.

There is no way Gillick would go with an outfield of Burrell, Victorino and Werth, no way. They just freed up money to sign a Rowand or a Hunter for center.

I thought they were looking at Garland in Chicago? That would be a nice addition to take the place of Eaton. Hamels, Myers, Garland Kendrick and Moyer. Eaton as a long reliever?
You're stuck with that salary for two more years. And, there's still a hole at third. Give Rowand what he wants, even if you have to overpay. Then sign Romero. Your only unknown is third.

If Lidge is healthy,I like the trade.Another starter and a lefthanded reliever are next followed by an upgrade at third. With Victorino in centerfield signing Rowand would be my last priority.Another starter would allow Eaton to be moved to the pen.

Cone on, people. Costanzo was a liability at third base, and is not really even hitting yet. Geary will benefit from a change of scenery, and Bourn has not shown he can hit left-handed pitching. A switch-hitter is more appropriate for this lineup, which is why Shane Victorino should stick around. Victorino would have been the one who probably needed to go. Now they should sign a Riske or Linebrink to add to the bullpen, and they can add a bat should Rowand go.

@Joe - What money was freed up? Money that does not have to be spent on free agent pitching. If anything we are taking on salary in this deal because Lidge is arb eligible.

Overall great, this is a great trade. Ed Wade finally made a good move for the Phillies. I think the dissenters need to realize that you have to give "something" up to get something. I assume they are also the ones who were thinking Bourn was going to get us Cabrera. Look at this objectively. We get a closer with peripherals that are great. Lidge throws hard, has secondary pitches, strikes out 1.31/IP, and a WHIP of 1.25. You don't get that for free, but Ed Wade allowed us to get it with Bourn, who could at best be a Kenny Lofton type player, middle relief, and likely an career power hitting minor leaguer. Also remember this gets us a great starter in Myers.

ASTROS GET: Bourn will never be more than a .280 hitter who gets 200 ABs a year and manages to swipe 25 bags. Geary is a load and Costanzo struck out far too many times in the minors.

PHILLIES GET: In Brad Lidge, a closer who has the potential to be great like he once was. He may have had just 19 saves, but his opponents' batting average was in the ballpark of .210. And Bruntlett, who can play any position under the sun. A top-of-the-line starter in Brett Myers.

I like the move.

Being really optimistic here:
Basically Phils trade Bourn for 1) a starting pitcher (Myers) who would have been the best available pitcher on the market by far...
AND because they no longer have to pay 14M per year for Carlos Silva they get 2)an all-star caliber center fielder in Rowand or Hunter.

We traded for a guy on crutches?? LOL

We will miss Bourn's speed as a defensive replacement for Burrell next season. He, like Victorino, was able to turn doubles into singles and hits into outs.

I feel a little bad for Myers, who I think was getting into the rush and intensity of being a closer. But hey, that's life.

As for remaining options, Rowand would be GREAT to have back. Cabrera would be even better. And while we all like to say the Phillies have enough offense to go around and then some, the team up the turnpike is eyeing A-Rod...

The team should still look hard at Dontrelle Willis as a No. 2 or 3 starter, and they should at least talk to Randy Wolf about middle relief.

To me, Romero seems like a great pitcher to re-sign but I sense that it isn't going to happen.

Anyway, hope Lidge works out! GO PHILS!

Geary is gone, but we BETTER resign Rowand TODAY with the loss of Bourne. Plus, we lose speed in the outfield and the bases by trading him away. Now, we're without a CF (Rowand) and no one to fill in for the lead-footed leftfielder (Burrell) in the late innings...and his contract is up after this season.

Costanzo was the future at 3B for us, and he is now gone. Helms and Dobbs ain't gonna cut it for very long at 3rd. Unless A-Rod is coming in, this position will be a black hole for years to come.

You also move Myers back to the rotation--where he doesn’t want to be--for a pitcher who was DEMOTED as closer for the Astros! HE COULDN'T CLOSE FOR THE ASTROS! Does that not concern anyone?!?

And, by losing Geary, our already thin bullpen is depleted even more! We now REALLY need to re-sign Romero. And, if we don’t and if there is no one else out there, then Mesa and Alfonseca are back.

I dont like it...

This trade was risky but needed to be done. The alternative was to sign a 4 year contract with Loshe (or Silva) and pay him $10-11 mil a year doing so. Plus a signing of those 2 are not a number 2 that Brett Myers can be when he is in the rotation.

Bourn, i believe can be a great player, but he's already kind of old because he went to college. This wouldn't be a factor if speed didn't go down with age. Bourn was basically going to be Philly's (or now Houston's) Juan Pierre.

Geary, we've had ups and downs with him. Ups was his entire 2006 season. Downs was most of this past season. He can succeed but when he fails its hard to watch.

Costanzo, first off... he's not a good fielder. But he did hit .270 with 27 homers in the AA which is reminiscent of how Schmidt hit. He certainly has pop but he also struck out 157 times in Reading. He may never make it to the majors as an every day third baseman.

How could anyone not like this move?

Lidge's numbers were solid last year. He lost the closer job due to unreasonable panic in the first week of the season and then regained it at the halfway point. He has had one hiccup his entire career and still has the same stuff that he had before the Pujols homerun. Plus, Myers moves back to the rotation, upgrading the rotation more than any other free agent, including Schilling, could have.

The Phils gave up - (1) a utility outfielder for the foreseeable future (even if they don't re-sign Rowand, Bourn would platoon with Werth/Victorino in the CF/RF), (2) a mediocre, at best, middle reliever, and (3) a minor leaguer who no one knows how good he will be in the majors (plus, the national media seems to say that this kid is not anything special). How does anybody know what Bourn will be in the future? He was a defensive replacement last season, who showed incredible speed, but an Abe Nunez-esque inability to hit the ball out of the infield. The question is whether you would acquire a potentially dominant closer that will allow you to move a 1 or 2 starter back to the rotation for a player whose highest potential is Juan Pierre?

Please stop the Cabrera talk! I don't want this guy. He is a horrible fielding 3rd baseman. Yes he can hit but is that really a top priority for this team? I am comfortable with Dobbs and Helms at 3rd with Bruntlett as a late inning defensive replacement. Plus, the Phils do not have anyone the Marlins would want for Cabrera so just forget about it.

This trade has some risk but don't all trades? Now the Phils need to resign Rowand and Romero and add another cheap starter to compete with Eaton (i.e. Wolf) along with some more releif help (i.e. Riske).

I think this was a nice deal for the Phillies.But we still need to do more. I would hope Gillick was only smokescreening about 3B. We now need to sign Rowand. Then how about trying to pick up a teams best 3B prospect. The one that comes to mind is the kid SD has in San Antonio.His name is Chase Headley. Blocked by the kid they have playing 3B. Mark Loretta would be an upgrade also(not much) but an upgrade of what we have already.

I like the deal. As others have said, I hope this means Rowand will be back. So does Houston have standing rule that every trade or signing they make has to be for a player whose last name starts with the letter B? With Biggio and Bagwell gone they needed to do this deal to restock thier line-up for Berkman and Burke?

Good trade. Costanzo doesn't have the glove for 3B, and he wasn't moving to 1B any time soon. Bourn may be missed a bit, but you have to give up to get. Remember, Boston gave up Hanley Ramirez for Beckett and Lowell (I know, NOT the same thing, but still ...)

We still need one reliever, THEN a LOOGY. And I'd like a back-end starter as troubleshooting. And another outfielder.

Check out Costanzo's numbers in the Arizona Fall League:

.169 batting average with 25 strikeouts in 71 at bats.

The last thing this lineup needs is another guy who strikes out a lot. He certainly wasn't going to be ready to play in the majors in 2008, maybe not even 2009.

I have mixed feelings about the deal. Costanzo (not to be mistaken for Costanza) is a big project who has pop but no or little fielding capabilities.

KEY STAT that would give pause to taking Myers out of the closing role: Myers gave up 33 runs last year. He gave up 16 of those runs in his first three outings of the season, all starts. So, in all of his relief appearances, he gave up only 17 runs. If any player thrived in the shift to bullpen--it is Myers. He brings intensity to the position and clearly thrives when the pressure is on his shoulders. In that regards, I think the decision was a mistake.

Bourn showed amazing productivity in centerfield. While his offensive numbers were mediocre, his defensive skills and speed were superior (or at least heading in that direction). I think we gave up on a future Kenny Lofton.

Lidge comes with baggage in health and mental pysche. As a source reported, he's on crutches and recently had surgery. His track record over the last 2 years has been spotty, so we will have to see whether he can regain his form the world series year.

I like the trade. Bourn has upside but if this means they re-sign Rowand, then it's even better. Gillick said in the interview they also want to re-sign Romero. If he's serious, a back-end bullpen of Romero, Gordan, and Lidge is a step up, and we improve the rotation by getting Myers back. Gordan's a wildcard but, if used properly, I think he can still be a factor. I think most of Lidge's recent issues are mental -- he still has good stuff. A change of scenery will do him good. I still think they may make a move at 3B. If it all lines up the only issue will be what to do with Eaton ... Does anyone think he can come back and show us something?

So it's absolutely certain that Myers is going back to the rotation? My friend (a Houston native and a longtime Astros fan) brought up a good point that Lidge used to be a setup man. Could Lidge become the Phillies' version of Hideki Okajima?

Quick thought: There are always questions on a trade, but it's probably safe to bank on the follwoing things happening in 2008...

Michael Bourn breaks out and becomes an all-star.

Mike Costanzo wins Rookie of the Year starting at 3rd base for the Astros.

Geoff Geary... well, let's not get crazy.

Kudo's to Gillick/Amaro for pulling this off. I bust on them, but thhe did Ok with this trade. BUT, this is not the whole answer...if Gordon breaks down we have no setup man and is Romero the guy? Good situational pitcher yes, everyday set up, not sure. Still need more arms. And Myers in the rotation is nice, but he isn't the second coming of Robin Roberts or Curt Schilling. Didn't dent the payroll too much with this deal and while I am not in favor of them spending 12-14M on Rowand (who I like), now we do need some serious outfield depth (and it's not Roberson).
Pat needs to pull off a few more deals before I think we have a good chance to repeat. We can't count on the METS to do a swoon again to win the division.

I like the trade. As previously stated here, it helps them avoid the thin and very overpriced starting rotation market ($40M for Silva, are you kidding me?) We don't need another Eaton around here, and Myers is as good as a starter as anyone on the market now. As with any trade, it's a gamble, but I think one worth taking. Let's just hope Lidge stays healthy.

ok, on the surface i think this is a great trade. but myers liked the closers role and didn't want to go back to the rotation. what happens now if the phils can't get another starter, can't resign rowand or get another outfielder, myers ends up having the same problems that he had when he started last year, and lidge ends up a bust?

[actually reads article]

Oh. Never mind, then.

Gas Can Geary lit the match and watched the inning go "boom" far too often in "relief".

Bourn is a nice player to have on a roster, but I'd much rather have fireballer Brad Lidge. Not to mention we picked up a solid starter for the rotation without forking over extra cash or a future draft pick- hello Brett "the hit man" Myers!

About damn time Ed Wade helped the Phillies out!

i didnt like the deal when gillick traded madsen and gio gonzalez (who now is
being mentioned as an integral component of a miguel cabrera trade) for freddy
garcia and i like this one even less. his failure in that deal and with adam
eaton compells him now to try to amend for those mistakes and he has only
exacerbated the situation in multiple respects. myers has manifested his desire
repeatedly to anchor the bullpen. his mental makeup is conducive to that role.
moving him back to the rotation, the impetus for this trade, is a desperation
move in the context of a week free agent pitching class that will weaken the
back end of the pen. lidge has not demonstrated he has regained his dominance,
is almost 31, and is injury prone. we have two minor league arms with
significant changes of contributing as call ups in outmann and carrasco that
could fortify the rotation next year. we dont necessarily need myers there. i
wouldnt have liked him making the switch even if lidge was a free agent signing.
giving up two of our best prospects and a relatively reliable middle reliever is
aburd. costanzo is a local kid who hit 27 jacks at double A. power like that
usually translates in the bigs. bourn not only could develop into a juan-pierre
like leadoff man, but he is a valuable asset to us now. jayson werth hit 125
points lower against righties last year. bourn hit over .300 against the.
platooning them would have given us depth on the bench. now either we have
start a guy who cant hit righties in right field everyday or address the
position. plus we lose our best late innings pinch runner. gilick has now
mortgaged three of our top 8 prospects. the fact ed wade just got two of them
makes this even more frustrating.

i didnt like the deal when gillick traded madsen and gio gonzalez (who now is
being mentioned as an integral component of a miguel cabrera trade) for freddy
garcia and i like this one even less. his failure in that deal and with adam
eaton compells him now to try to amend for those mistakes and he has only
exacerbated the situation in multiple respects. myers has manifested his desire
repeatedly to anchor the bullpen. his mental makeup is conducive to that role.
moving him back to the rotation, the impetus for this trade, is a desperation
move in the context of a week free agent pitching class that will weaken the
back end of the pen. lidge has not demonstrated he has regained his dominance,
is almost 31, and is injury prone. we have two minor league arms with
significant changes of contributing as call ups in outmann and carrasco that
could fortify the rotation next year. we dont necessarily need myers there. i
wouldnt have liked him making the switch even if lidge was a free agent signing.
giving up two of our best prospects and a relatively reliable middle reliever is
aburd. costanzo is a local kid who hit 27 jacks at double A. power like that
usually translates in the bigs. bourn not only could develop into a juan-pierre
like leadoff man, but he is a valuable asset to us now. jayson werth hit 125
points lower against righties last year. bourn hit over .300 against the.
platooning them would have given us depth on the bench. now either we have
start a guy who cant hit righties in right field everyday or address the
position. plus we lose our best late innings pinch runner. gilick has now
mortgaged three of our top 8 prospects. the fact ed wade just got two of them
makes this even more frustrating.

and another thing. with the salary that they're obligated to Eaton for, they're not moving him to the pen.

hey adam, they never traded madson. the trade involved GAVIN FLOYD and gio gonzalez

hey adam, they never traded madson. the trade involved GAVIN FLOYD and gio gonzalez

They can't keep Eaton in the rotation just because they're paying him 8 mil a year. If he can eat innings in blow outs then he can keep the other arms fresh. Not the best use of 8 mil, I agree, but it might keep the other high priced arms from breaking down in July and August. Maybe he'll find some pride and want to show he deserves to be back in the starting rotation.

This is a good trade. Pitching has become way too overpriced and we gave up really nothing. I did not like Meyers in the pen seemed to struggle a lot when working two days in a row (although that may have changed being conditioned as a reliever not a starter).

Lets look at what the alternatives were, sign a #3 pitcher to a $40-$50 million and hope for the best and leave Meyers in the Pen.

Or sign a Joe Borowski type and still move Meyers to the roation. I would rather have lidge than a borowski/bourne combo. Gillick has done one thing well as the Phils GM, find fill in players. We can use roberson in the defensive replacment role. And can probably get by with a Helms/Coste/Dobbs/Werth RF/3B combo. Plus its much easier to find a stop gap of than a stop gap pitcher.

I would try to avoid signing Rowand. Look at his last 3-4 years not last year is he or even Hunter worth a $40-to $50 million contract...I sure hope not.

I have been an advocate for getting Cabrera or tejada (or even at least talking to A-rod), but with Bourne gone I would think cabrera is definately out of the picture and probably tejada as well.

Now I would just focus on getting stop gap players, talk with the japanese pitcher, and try to do what the yankees did with leiber. Sign an injured player to a 2 year deal for reasonable money and let them sit until '09..moyer will have to retire at some time and its better than another eaton esque deal.

Costanzo has a few major flaws in his game. His fielding is atrocious - under .875 fielding percentage. He strikes out a ton - he had 157 whiffs to go with those 27 jacks you point out. His average was around .270. Looking at this lineup, do you really want another player who can hit it out, but is more likely to K when all you really need is the ground ball or sac fly to score the guy from third with less than 2 outs?? The Phillies led the NL (2nd in all of MLB) in runs scored with the Helms/Nunez/Dobbs situation at third. While upgrading that spot would be nice, it's hardly as important as strengthening both starting and relief pitching. If the Phils shaved 0.50 off their team ERA last year, the division doesn't even go down to the last game of the season - they wrap it up with a week or 10 days to go.

Oh, and Bourne will never be Kenny Lofton. Speed and D, yes, quality bat, no.

Now that Bourn is gone, does this lean more toward re-signing Rowand? I hope so.

What are you people smoking? The Phillies have one of the worst minor league systems in the league, so losing 2 of theeir top 8 propsects is not a huge deal. Costanzo has less than a 10% chance of being a starting 3rd basemen. Bourn is a nice 4th outfielder, but is not an everyday player. Geary was dreck. Wade liked these guys when he drafted them, but what credibility does he have?

As for the bullpen, don't forget Ryan Madson in the late inning mix. He was really starting to dell well prior to his injury. I expect guys like Bisenius and Zagurski to be able to help this coming year in the pen as well. I can't imagine they would ever consider bringing Mesa back and I am hoping they don't think about bringing back Alfonseca. The teams with the best bullpens throw live arms out there on the cheap and get similar production than these overpriced middle men. I like a guy like Rosario with a live arm, or a Castro rather than overpaying suspect middle men.

Myers is a starter, just because his mentality can deal with being a closer, doesn't make him a closer. His stuff says he is a starter. Lidge is a big upgrade there.

The lineup scares me a little, I cannot justify giving Rowand 84 for 6 years, he is not that good. And in 3 years, we would have an albatross like we have in Burrell now. But we cannot survive without another outfield bat unless we add a proven 3B and platoon Dobbs with Werth in right.

i thought Rowand's agent debunked the 6 years/$84million rumor? no?

I still want a 3B prospect in waiting if we're not trying to solidify third base!!!