The Zo Zone

Since the quality of available pitching is so weak and if the best the Phils can do at third base is Iguchi I think it makes sense to keep Rowand. It sounds like other teams aren't bidding too high for him so the Phils could keep him for a reasonable price. This has allways made sense to me since Burrel is in the last year of his contract. The Phils would only pay big for one year. In 2009 they let Burrel go and still have a great outfield
(even better defense) and they are pay about the same as they are now.
We hope some of our young and old arms come through and we keep a killer offense.We also keep a team on the field that fans will love to root for.We sort of added a top pitcher by moving Myers back to the rotation. Give Rowand five years for reasonable $ and get that waver for Iguchi.

Outfielders, by far is the easiest position to replace. Also the easiest place to make a mistake, that could cost you millions..aka BURRELL....Good luck, MR Rowand, enjoy your millions. As long as it isn't Phillies money. Ruly Carpenter, baseball has come a long way since Claudell Washington ! INSANITY...

"Also the easiest place to make a mistake, that could cost you millions..aka BURRELL..."

A mistake? I thought some of the WIP crowd was coming around, but apparently not.

why are the phillies so short sighted?  we need a 3rd baseman; they are available - again -phillies? - NO - why ? it's the money.  and give rowand a 4th year -phillies? NO - why ? it's the money.. there were some middle relief out there - that have been signed or traded - phils? -NO - why ? it's the money.. a starter? phillies? NO - why ? it's the money

they are so tight fisted and short sited...

Is there any chance of them opening their eyes and wallets?

ReadingPhilly, are you saying we got our we didn't make a mistake with Burrell signing ? Please explain, your post sends a mixed message.

It's extremely tough, if not impossible, to call the Burrell signing a mistake anymore. Maybe we jumped the gun a little, but if he hit the free market today, he'd get the same money (if not more). Plus, we have absolutely no one who could fill his role (a problem we'll probably have to rectify for next year). Maybe he never became a superstar, but even supporting characters make it rich nowadays.

king - I'm with you on Burrell. There aren't many low paid outfielders hitting 30 homers a year. The key for Pat is if he can continue playing like he did the last half of 2007. I was genuinely happy for the guy the way he turned it around last year. At one of the Mets games I was at, the left field crowd gave him a standing ovation when he took he field after hitting a HR. Quite a turnaround from the abuse he was getting from that same crowd a year earlier. His fielding isn't the best and he's slow but he has a good arm and *can* have a good bat when he gets his head right like he did last year. I feel like he did a mental turnaround last year and it's just a question of whether he can carry that into 2008. If he does, he'd be no more overpaid than Rowand would at the numbers he wants.

I do not understand who you want the Phillies to spend a lot of money on. Would you like to overpay for Silva, Lohse, or Rowand? If they do, then you will be the person who is complaining about it a year from now.

It's hard not to conclude that the owners are happy with winning 85 games and filling CB Park.

There's no good baseball reason for arbitrarily keeping the payroll below $120 million per year.

Sadly, the owners seem to see the team as just another business. There's a whole lot of dismal Phillies' history that they are perpetuating.

Despite all of George Steinbrenner's sins in NYC, at least he's not cheap.

They could obviously overspend on Rowand. I'm on the fence there. I'd like him back, even if it means overspending, but I don't want him locked into an overly long contract. They also probably could have overspent for 3B. All indications are that they did try that when they attempted to get Lowell. Now, I see no free agent 3B players worth overspending for. With pitching, I think most of the free agents were slop. I'm not disappointed that they didn't get Wolf. Silva, may be worth overspending for but a gamble. Lohse was good last year but not good enough that I'd want to lock him into a long term contract. Just think back a year ago when the Garcia signing looked so good. Pitching is a gamble. A Willis/Cabrera deal would have been great to overspend on, but the fact is the Phils don't have the minor league players to pull that sort of deal off. A deal like that is as much about having the prospects to trade as it is about spending. The Bedard rumors fall into that same category. The Phils supposedly did express interest to the Orioles at one point but were told by the O's they didn't have the players needed to make a deal.

Rowand was a bust in the three post season games. Let him go and move on. Just wish Gillick would clean out the farm system for a third top line starter to go with Myers and Hamels. This team is built to win now with its core players in their prime right now! Give Golson a chance in center in spring training and see what happens. He is better right now than Bourn was last season. Just wish they would get a lefthanded bat like Jenkins but I can live with an outfield of Pat, Vic and Werth with Golson and Snelling if only they would add a Bedard type starter.

The reality is the Phillies can use the $10 million they would give Rowand in other places. Burrell, Victorino and Werth is a better trio than Burrell, Rowand and Victorino. Just because the Phillies choose to spend it wisely than quickly is no reason to think they're not looking.

What's disappointing is that we couldn't get into a three way deal for Miguel Cabrera. Not sure what other third baseman are still out there but clearly the Phillies have more of an urgency to fix that position than the outfield.

I think the Phils ownership are thinking of their future. We now have (4) legit superstars, who are about to become rich. It's very difficult to be able to keep up with the market with that many stars .The only teams that can, Yanks and Red Sox. Mets and now Detroit making a run at it also. Those superstars could someday cost Phillies brass somewhere around 75 million per . Now do the math. Crumbs, for the rest of the squad. This may be the push ownership needs to sell, so they can sleep at night. Thats the reason their not opening their wallets..One more thing , I CAN'T BELIEVE, I just read for the first time, that Burrell's contract was justified. WOW !

You're right Steve, Rowand did nothing in the postseason, despite all his 'experience' in that department. He looked like a postseason newbie along with the rest of the team!

Pat - I don't know if I'd say Burrell's salary was justified. Certainly he had some disappointing years in there for what he was paid. But outfielder pay has surpassed what he's getting. His overall contract was 6 years/50 million. Carlos Lee signed for 6 years/100 million last year. Is Carlos Lee better? Yes. Is he twice as good? No. And we have Torii Hunter just signing a 5 year/90 million deal. Just take a handful of outfielders who hit around 30 HRs a year, go to Cot's, compare their salaries, go to baseball-reference.com and compare their numbers, and you should conclude that Burrell isn't stealing any more than the rest of the league at this point. My only point was be careful what you wish for. Unless you have a stud minor leaguer ready to step in, you're not going to get 30 HRs from LF without paying more than we're paying for Burrell (overall anyway -- Pat's salary is weighted toward the end). Last year there were some good signs. He walked more and struck out less. We saw less of those out-looking at bats ... If he could have a full year like his 2007 second half, we'd all be happy. Since he's headed toward free agency, maybe we'll see that last year push like we saw with Hunter and Rowand.

"It's hard not to conclude that the owners are happy with winning 85 games and filling CB Park. There's no good baseball reason for arbitrarily keeping the payroll below $120 million per year."

What the hell are you talking about? First, the team just won 89 games and the division title this year. Second, how many teams in baseball have payrolls of $120 million or more? Four, five? The Phillies payroll of $105 million is among the top third in the league and is MORE than enough to win a division title, a pennant and a championship.

The team has 2 MVP's and a 3rd MVP contender, and two of the best young pitchers in the NL in Hamels and Myers with Kendrick possibly being a third. Stop living in the mid 1990's when it was fashionable to bash ownership for not spending money and get real. The money has been spent, the players are on the roster, and if they perform up to their potential the team will be successful.

p.s. -- What great big spending moves have our primary competition the Mets made this offseason??

the thing that worries me the most about the upcoming season is our fifth starter (obviously) and also Kyle Kendrick turning into the non-prospect he was in the minors. i know he had a good year and God knows, I am rooting for him, but he pitched WAY over his head last year according to every single scout. i'm worried he turns into a pumpkin next year...

"ReadingPhilly, are you saying we got our we didn't make a mistake with Burrell signing ? Please explain, your post sends a mixed message"

That's exactly what I am saying. He had a below average 2003, but every other year he has performed very well. He's a guy who has consistently produced numbers equivalent to his contract. He'd only be making a little over $8 million this year, but he agreed to backload his contract so the Phils could pick up more players. He tried to help out the team and for some reason fans always ragged on him. For a guy who wants to play in Philly and saved Gillick from making a terrible deal, I hope they look into extending him. However, TPTB aren't too bright, so I suspect this could be his last season here.

There have to be people to spend the money on. There aren't many guys worth getting on the free-agent market. The Phils are willing to fit Roward into the budget. Just not for 5 years. Santana, Bedard, Haren and those kind of pitchers are available but the Phils do NOT have the prospects to get them. Those teams want 2-3 blue chip prospects and we don't have them. Gillick is trying to get things done. He's got to deal with the reality of the situation with the money they have available, the prospects they have in the system and with what is available. Just wishing for things doesn't make them true.

Hey Realistic Observer,

Does anybody think the current Phillies team can win 89 games in 2008? Without Rowand, and without Iguchi, even 85 will be a stretch.

And what's "realistic" about defending billionaire owners?

Yes, if the Phillies want to be one of the best four or five teams, they should spend like the best four or five.

Finally, stop crying for the super rich--Philly is a union town.

Rowand is "severely" overrated!!!

For every spectacular play he makes defensively he "takes a chance" that doesn't work out and costs the Phils in the end.

I am very happy that Shane Victorino will be the Phils CF next season. Although not as spectacular, he is a far superior outfielder. He will make plays in a more routine fashion with out the "flair" of Aaron Rowand.

Victorinos' offense will take care of itself.

Burrell made a HUGE contribution to the Phils run at the playoffs. His numbers are good but but somewhat misleading, we all know he is an AL player now.

Also , Victorino flashed last year , but has NEVER played a full season as a starting OF. Rowand has , and has also won a title. He is solid in every way and a great presence on the team. It looks like they aren't going to pay anyone other than Utley / Rollins and eventually Howard though , and that is a shame.

If Vic is a full time starter we need another OF big time to help Werth and Burrell. I still don't get it. Please sign the best OF still on the market ! We can all see the pitching available is soooo average. Dont overspend on Silva / Loshe when a kid from AA can put up the same numbers. Let's just keep bashing people and scoring runs , and just work with guys such as Carrasco , Happ , Outman , Carpenter. Bring them along slowly early in the season , then promote whoever is throwing the best. Maybe we have another Kendrick. We already know the available FA's cant pitch worth crap.

Give Rowand the 5 yrs and I'm OK with the pitching being supplimented with youth.

And please do NOT give 3 yrs to a 2b who doesn't want to / can't play 3rd ! Iguchi is a good player but I dont see paying him 3 yrs and Rowand ( gold glover and perfect fit here ) doesnt get the money he really deserves.

I rather have the two draft picks than sign Rowand for 5 years and a ridiculous amount of money.

"Burrell, Victorino and Werth is a better trio than Burrell, Rowand and Victorino."

That's the craziest thing I've read in a long time. With that OF, take a look at our lineup:

SS-Rollins
CF-Victorino
2B-Utley
1B-Howard
LF-Burrell
3B-Helms/Dobbs
RF-Werth
C-Ruiz

Not exactly striking fear in the eyes of opposing NL pitching staffs. Now, throw Rowand in there and a real 3B and it's a much different story.

The only thing we have going for us right now is that other NL East teams are not getting a whole lot better around us.

Burrell is a fossil in left field. Yes, he had a nice last three months in 2007 but do you remember the first three? He can't hit a breaking ball and tries to pull everything.

Rowand's a great guy and I love the way he plays but I wouldn't give him $16 million per year. Let's face it, last year was a career year for him and even in our bandbox of a stadium he still didn't drive in 100 runs. Another thing to consider, Howard, Burrell and Rowand, that is a ton of strikeouts in the middle of the order.

We need pitching, pitching and more pitching. if Rowand leaves, we need to draft pitchers with the picks we get. What we've learned this offseason is you can sign position players, you can't find pitchers unless you want to pay 4 years and $8 million for a #5 starter like Kyle Loshe.

Burrell is a fossil in left field. Yes, he had a nice last three months in 2007 but do you remember the first three? He can't hit a breaking ball and tries to pull everything.

Rowand's a great guy and I love the way he plays but I wouldn't give him $16 million per year. Let's face it, last year was a career year for him and even in our bandbox of a stadium he still didn't drive in 100 runs. Another thing to consider, Howard, Burrell and Rowand, that is a ton of strikeouts in the middle of the order.

We need pitching, pitching and more pitching. if Rowand leaves, we need to draft pitchers with the picks we get. What we've learned this offseason is you can sign position players, you can't find pitchers unless you want to pay 4 years and $8 million for a #5 starter like Kyle Loshe.

If the Phillies don't sign Rowand then I am hoping that they make a run at Fukudome since Gillick seems to like Japanese players. Not sure how much moeny he would require but I am assuming it should be less than Rowand. I could be wrong though.

And I hope they find a suitable third baseman soon so they can give Helms back to the Marlins.

The most impressive part of Burrell's run last year was his on-base close to .400, which tied for ninth in the NL. Don't be surprised if he puts up similar numbers in his contract year. And then he'll go off to the AL and be a fourth outfielder/DH.

Last year's "problem" with six starting pitchers seemed to satisfy the pitching problem. Exhibits A and B, Freddy Garcia and Jon Lieber, were going to make us the team to beat. Clearly that wasn't the case.

I'm just mad they haven't gotten any relievers. I understand they don't want to put their money into position players and don't want to go 5 years with the starting pitchers out there. But come on these relievers are signing for relatively short deals. That's what the phils said they wanted.

Gagne for 1 year at $10 mil?

Riske for 3 years $13 mil with incentives up to 20

This team doesn't want to win more than making money and that's what it comes down to. The fans should not be defending this organization for that.

I wouldn't have a problem if they spent less money as long as they had the kind of scouting that Oak and Fla has had over the years but the phils are too cheap to pay for the best scouts and the best prospects. (JD Drew)
Is 89 wins and getting swept out of the playoffs then letting good players leave going to satisfy the fans? Their roster has gotten worse since they got swept. Let's get moving in the right direction.

This discussion board has recently been just about signing Rowand. Only one post refers to Pat Gillick sitting waiting on deals that will never happen when all the relief free-agents are signed. The hardcore Troy Percival would have been tremedous in CBP. Riske, just signed. We may have to rehire the horrible Joe Table (Jose Mesa), or Fatty-Fonseca who eats way too much. Now no additional relief pitching is in sight. Also, Mike Lamb at 3B would be a nice addittion. Plus we need some versitle bench help. Don't sign Rowand, then recieve the top draft picks so our farm system wont be empty nexr year at this time when we argue we have no one to trade!

Jared they signed/picked up/drafted/traded for FOUR relievers! What are you talking about?? Thats 4 more than the mets, and most of the other teams as well. Granted, Youman isnt an ace reliever, and the guy they drafted is a rule 5, but they are trying. Romero and Lidge are top notch. Besides, alot of relievers come out of nowhere, do good for a few years,then disappear because of injury or ineffectiveness. So maybe one of the other pick-ups will work out! They are trying!

Clinton- I just was hoping for a little more push to improve the bulpen. You're right that relievers are very inconsistent from year to year. I was just venting that this bulpen will probably be the same as last year's unit that was one of the worst in the league if you consider the Lidge Myers switch a push.

But Jared my friend, think of all the injuries they had. 3 of the top relievers went on the shelf for more than a month, really two months. Thats how the whole Myers experiment started. And I understand your venting, but when you think about next years potential pen, it doesnt look so bad. We just need that one young live arm to come out of nowhere and pitch good, and we'll be in great shape.

I hope so

Hey Reading Phillie, Are you suggesting that Burrell is worth $15MM? Pleeeease!

It's obvious to me that the Phils,by not signing Rowand and not delivering a decent third baseman like Pedro Feliz, are interested in simply "being competitive" and filling the seats and living on the ardor of the Phils' fans. After all we always support them. Not me anymore!!! Time to step off the bandwagon and root for someone else, unless things turn. THe Phils are simply too cheap to contend. There is no other excuse. We should have allowed them to move to another region several years ago instead of building them a new ballpark.

"Hey Reading Phillie, Are you suggesting that Burrell is worth $15MM? Pleeeease!"

In this market, yes. Even so that wasn't my point. He signed a contract for 6/50 which comes out to 8.3 per. The Phils were the ones who wanted to backload it and he agreed.

Please don't mention Pedro Feliz as a "decent third baseman". He is the definition of terrible.

mlb.com is saying Fukudome may get Soriano type numbers. That would be more than twice what Burrell makes. Fukudome has good numbers, but I guess it remains to be seen if those will necessary translate to the same numbers over here.

Then there's a note about the Phils' interest in Kris Benson. *yawn*

armchairgm.com has these projected 2008 MLB numbers for Fukudome by a Yankees scout:

.265 AVG, .380 OBP, 20–30 HR, 80–100 RBI and 10 SB

Looks very Burrell-like for all the money he'll get.

Hey,

is mussina coming to the phillies or what?

In this market, give me Kris Benson on a short incentive laced deal.

ReadingPhilly is right about Burrell’s contact. Slight side note with Pat is that he never gets credit for is even when he is not hitting he still gets on base better then Jimmy.

I disagree with ReadingPhilly about Feliz though. He might not be a good offensive player but his defense is plus. Though I don’t want unless he is going to take Helms place and really Helms has to bounce back doesn’t he? Ugh…

Really, with what is out there is no need to upgrade 3rd or center if pitching is not further addressed.

I really don’t see why people are getting upset at the Phillies other then people secretly like bad contracts… if there isn’t anything out there to spend the money on then don’t spend it. Keep the flexibility. The last thing I’d want is for the team to not be able to make a midseason trade or deal because they blew their money on marginal players in the off-season.

As far as trades, the Phillies don’t have the horses to get involved in these big names, unless you are willing to trade Howard, Utley, or Rollins, it’s that simple.

Mussina might not be a bad option, particularly if they can get him on one year deal. He's got to be a better bet than Eaton. The Yankees are probably looking to unload him so they can sign Santana.

Wow are you guys for real? Hell, I'd rather bring on Benson then Mussina at least he's a little younger(do you SEE the sarcasm). The Phils NEED pitching but they aren't going to get anyone good. They NEED a third baseman, but probably won't get that either.

The problem with Lamb is that he's ANOTHER left handed bat. If you wanted another left handed bat then why not trade for Blalock from Texas. The problem with Feliz is that he a nonexistant bat. If we want that we just keep Helms.

As for pitching, Cris was right about Joe Table and All-fat-seca they aren't the key. Think about Mesa for a minute, I know you don't want to, but bare with me. In his career his ERA has ranged between 1.13 and 7.11 for a full season. That is enough to show you the inconsistencies or a reliever.

For third basemen, I say trade Helms anyway! Give Dobbs or Coste a go at 3rd unless you bring back Iguchi. They are decent hitting 3Bs, not spectacular but an A-Rod type player isn't going to just fall into a Phillies uniform. The defense would be just the same with them (Dobbs/Coste) as it would be with Helms and we'de be paying over a million less for them. All of these 3Bs that everyone mentions are all the same, at or below .260 career hitters. Crede (.259), Ensberg (.265), Feliz (.252), is that what you REALLY want?

Although Lamb was at least a decent thought, we NEED a RIGHT HANDED 3B that will produce (.290s, 25-35 HR, less than 100 Ks and over or damn close to 100 RBI) and until it's available we should stay with what we have or try to screw someone out of one via trade.

Oh yeah, I forgot a popular 3B choice. Inge, there is a REASON that the Tiger went out and got Cabrera. Inge is a career .241 hitter.