The Zo Zone

if the phillies trade victorino, they can re-sign rowand to play center field. do you even think things through?

is that just like the phillies had no interest in mike lowell? unless you were in on the call, it's hard to imagine you KNOW they didn't talk about bedard. now maybe someone told you they didn't talk --- but that's hardly the same thing.

Todd,

For once I agree with you wholeheartedly. Bedard is due for arbitration and will get big money. Rowand + Bedard could be 17-18 million. Ridiculous!

what about corey patterson or kenny lofton even? there's a bunch of folks who could hold you over for a year until you clear PTB's contract

To acquire a pitcher the caliber of Bedard I'd be okay if they signed Todd Zolecki to play center haha. A trade for Bedard will almost definitely not happen, but what we'd do without Victorino would be the last thing we should be worrying about.

The Phils could offer Victorino and a pitching prospect (Outman or Carrasco or Happ) to the Rockies for 3B Ian Stewart and SP Jason Hirsh; and then re-sign Rowand.

I like how someone named Annonymous insults Zolecki, as if he is just some poster on the sight. To be honest, I think over the long haul, Victorino could be equal to Rowand and cheaper. His offensive numbers will probably even out, especially if you have Werth in right to make up for any power loss by Rowand, and he is a better defensive player. Remember Rowand had a career year at age 30! Odds are he doesn't duplicate it over the next 4-5 years, especially out of the comfy confines of CBP. I'd like him back, but he isn't the second coming of Willie Mays.

according to mlb.com the marlins have contacted the phillies about wes helms....

http://wintermeetings.mlblogs.com/nashvilleconfidential/

good news for the phillies if they can work something out...

I'm not sure if this rumor is true but, Victorino and Kendrick? For Bedard? The Orioles wouldn't bother to reject it, because they probably thought it was a joke. You guys are worried about who would play center like this trade would ever happen. I know people over value their own prospects, but wake up everybody, Shane Victorino and Kyle Kendrick could not even net you Joe Blanton. If you hope to obtain Bedard, better start with Cole Hamels (which of course the Phils wouldn't do), as he is the only player outside of the big three (Howard,Rollins,Utley) that any team would have interest in. Shane Victorino? Really? Seriously?

For the record, I believe the rumor was started by some fella named Joe Haggerty from the bathroom stall hot read, Philadelphia Metro.

Cole Hamels at this point being further from free agency than Bedard very well could hold equal value to Bedard... potentially more value. Plus Hamels is 6 years younger. This is why Billy Beane thinks Dan Haren despite clearly not beign quite as good as Santana holds more value than Santana, because he is younger and under the club's control for 3 more years opposed to Santana who you would need to immediately sign to a lucrative extension.

So trading Cole Hamels for Bedard would be stupid for the Phillies. But I agree an offer of Kendrick and Victorino won't get it done either.

When I saw that Bedard rumor today I laughed out loud!! Victorino and Kendrick aren't even in the same league as what some of these other rumored deals are involving Bedard.

Keep up the good work T-Bone!!!!

I was going to post the same thing d... Marlins are interested in Wes Helms. Free up a couple mil and give it to Rowand, maybe get him to accept only 3 years... What's Nunez' status? Anyone grab him yet? Get him back and let him platoon with Dobbs - he can't hit, but the man knows how to field the position.

I love Kendrick and Victorino. Phils have already dealt Bourn - dealing Victorino would slow the Phils down on the basepaths. It would be painful to part with either. But for Bedard? Would have to seriously consider that one... Top three in the rotation: Hamels, Bedard & Myers? How would you like to enter a NLDS with that? Pretty good for both teams, but it would make resigning Rowand mandatory. Do a Google news search on "Phillies Bedard" and a few rumors come up... Just rumors. Good fantasy material though!!!

Yea, I agree. Hamels for Bedard would be over paying for Bedard.

Kendrick, Victorino and two prospects for Bedard I would do in a heartbeat and then find someone to play CF. Maybe Rowand would take 4 years with LA now out of the mix...

Finding a CF is a heck of a lot easier than finding a stud pitcher!

Do you guys actually beleive that Kendrick and Victorino for Bedard is a "good" deal for the Orioles?

Get your head examined!

Shane Victorino, just because Philly fans like him doesnt make him talented. I mean quit it with the lovefest. Victorino's numbers were worse than SHAWN GREENS last year, now are you suggesting Shawn Green could be traded for Erik Bedard?

Not to mention Kyle Kendrick was like finding a $20 dollar bill on the ground. It's was a nice suprise but in the end, not really worth much. He had a good year, but he's not a valuable player. The only value those players hold is to stay in Philadelphia.

The Phillies best hope for their rotation is to fight the Royals for Carlos Silva or to simply punk out and sign a Livan Hernandez. Because they have no shot whatsoever of trading for a 1 or 2 starter, and will have difficulty trading for a solid 3.

In closing, of course you fools want to do this trade. Just like the Cardinals would like to trade Rick Ankiel for Carlos Zambrano. It's unrealistic, get with the program and pay attention to what you are thinking.

If Shane Victorino plays all season without injury, he could very well steal 60 bases. That would make up for any loss of power due to Rowand's exit. The Phils had the league's best base-stealing percentage last year, and should try to use their speed more in 2008.

Thanks for the chuckle of the day... I really needed one!

"Rowand + Bedard could be 17-18 million. Ridiculous!"

How is it ridiculous to pay 18 million for two excellent players? Andruw Jones, a .220 hitter last season, just signed for 18 million a year. The Phillies need to grow up and play with the big boys if they're ever going to win a title.

I'm happy to hear that the pain still hasn't dissipated, Matt. It must have REALLY hurt to lose the division in the last game of the season like that. It sounds like you're angst over it is causing you to lash out on others with no provocation. You might want to check out "the little blue pill".

If the Phillies "higher ups" really expect a rule 5 pick to compete for a rotation spot for a team whose goal "should" be winnng a championship they need to be shot. Also, instead of debunking every Phils rumor that comes your way, why don't you use your contacts as a beat writer and find out what is really going on, or is Pat Gillick just taking a nap?
Sincerely, exetremely phrustarted Phillies phan.

i dont think anyone expects much from a rule 5 guy...although as i read, the most sought out pitcher right now, johan santana, was a rule 5 guy....

right now pitching is so hard to get...look at all the free agent pitchers out there, no one seems to be rushing out to sign them...perhaps everyone is very cautious like the phillies to overspend for just okay players...

and unfortunately the phillies do not have the prospects to trade for anything...or any players at that matter unless youre willing to give up jroll, howard, utley, hamels, or meyers...which theyd be insane to do...

I am actually a Phillies fan "Rick". I just don't understand why people think Shane is a blue chipper when he is no more than able bodied defensive outfielder. So "Rick", before you say something stupid again, try making a counter point rather than attack the Mets. Yes, we got Brad Lidge, but they a certainly going to do something. So, i wish the Phils would get their head out of the clouds and make realistic moves or we are gonna have to rely on being "given" the division again. We can beat the mets, but not with the team we have vs. the team they WILL have in April

If the Marlins want Helms they should trade him for a cheesesteak. A south Florida cheesesteak.

Before you dismiss this - on ESPN I saw that "prospects" included Carrasco and Outman.

So yes. Kendrick, Carrasco, Outman and Victorino for Bedard and Mora (As I've seen on the web) makes sense for the Orioles in restocking their team.

This "rumored" trade would be a terrible move for the Phillies. Gillick would never make such a lopsided deal. Kendrick is an above average pitcher who will likely be our 3 man this year. The trio of Hamels, Myers, and Kendrick is an outstanding top of the rotation. Bedard is a quality pitcher, no doubt, but he isn't THAT much better than Kendrick to also warrant Carasco (one of the top pitching prospects in the minors), Victorino, and another player. Victorino is a solid hitter and an outstanding defender so I don't see him going anywhere anyway.

Ok im done, your all stupid.

Pretty passionate chat over a "rumor"... :)

If Victorino were an everyday player he should steal 50+ bases and score 85-90 runs a year in a good offense like the Phils'. Plus he has some pop in his bat, switch-hits, and he's a good outfield arm. And... he's young and cheap (at the moment), as is Kendrick. That's the attraction for Baltimore. They're nowhere near playoff-caliber, and in that Division, forget it for at least a half-decade or so. So they could unload Bedard and his salary expectations for young and inexpensive but currently ML-caliber talent with great future potential.

If the package also includes Carrasco and Outman, as another poster reports - and I hope it does not - Baltimore is nuts not to grab it.

But hush, this is all rumors anyway... :)

To all you Victorino lovers-pls get a life. He is barely bigger than his own bobblehead. He is worthless. His only value is here in Philadelphia as a previous poster said. You schmucks kill me. You fall in love with a scrub like little Vic and run every superstar outta town. This is the most ridulous sports city ever created and it says alot about the city itself....

Your losersssssssss

To all you Victorino lovers-pls get a life. He is barely bigger than his own bobblehead. He is worthless. His only value is here in Philadelphia as a previous poster said. You schmucks kill me. You fall in love with a scrub like little Vic and run every superstar outta town. This is the most ridulous sports city ever created and it says alot about the city itself....

Your losersssssssss

This is crazy.
You've got different groups arguing points that are separate from one another.

(1) Shane Victorino - Pretender or Contender? We have "Matt" arguing Victorino's numbers are "worse" than NYM Shawn Green's. Really?

Victorino .281 78R 12HR 46RBI 37SB 10A .988FP
Green .291 62R 10HR 46RBI 11SB 3A .986FP

So, the Phillie, who was usually taking pitches and protecting Rollins, has more Runs, HRs, SBs and outfield assists, than the "mighty" Shawn Green.

That doesn't make Victorino the next Willie Mays, but his speed, switch hitting and arm make him, currently, the best centerfielder in the NL East. And he doesn't have to be great, just good. Remember, he's covering center AND most of left to makeup for Burrell.

(2) Economics 101: Besides the absurdity of the O's trading Bedard for Victorino and Kendrick, is simple economics. SV + KK does not equal "millions" to sign Rowand. Rowand apparently wants a T. Hunter-eque deal. SV will make what? 500K? 750K? next year? Kendrick less than that. Their $$$ don't equal enough money to sign Rowand. And, on top of that, if Bedard is traded, his agent will ask for a new, multi-year contract. Or Arbitration.

(3) The Andruw Jones Analogy: Jones might have hit .220 last year, but he does have 10 Gold Gloves. His agent is Scott Boras. And the Dodgers are praying the "old" AJ shows up and not the "new" AJ that's been playing the last few seasons. LA overpaid. WAY overpaid. There's a reason Atlanta let him walk - - and it's NOT because you know, Atlanta has done such a *lousy* job of talent evaluation over the years. (DISCLAIMER: For those who suffer from sarcasm deprivation, that last bit was sarcastic.)

The Jones analogy doesn't apply to the Phils situation, with the exception, they can't overpay for Rowand. "Playing with the big boys" as one poster suggested doesn't mean spending lots of $$$ for players/positions that aren't integral. Nor does overpaying for someone like Hernandez/Silva (and let's not even get into the fact Silva was once a Phillie we let go for nothing)

(4) Wheel of Fortune: I love the posts that say trade Happ, Outman, Carasco et al for a "big" name like Bedard. Hell, why not throw in Savery?

We know the reality - - Kendrick was likely a fluke, something is wrong with Eaton (and even when there wasn't he was still, well, Eaton)and that leaves the Phils with Myers and Hamels - - both of whom were hurt last year.

It's a good chance we will need ALL those arms this season just to compete. Durbin, Happ, Outman and Carasco will all likely pitch in the bigs in 2008 - - for the Phillies. Giving the future away for one so-so pitcher who probably wouldn't re-sign to stay in Philly makes no sense. First, the future, as noted, could be now. Secondly, I'd rather have all of them in the mix by 2009 then pin my hopes Bedard will win the season. (For examples, see Garcia, Freddy)

(5) Fittingly here, Rule V. It's a crapshoot. So what? It's how we got Victorino. And if one of these two gets hot wins a spot in ST and then wins a few games? It's worth the $50k. As far as Rule V draftees doing nothing... um, check out SDP's Justin Germano. Yep, another one-time Phil. Wouldn't have minded him the mix last year would you?

The Phils need to be smart about this. They're not going to get a #3 starter or quality BP help. They'll be lucky to get a #5 and will have to try and mix and match like they did in '07. Let's not mortgage the future in order to get clobbered by NYY,BSX or DET. Let's set the team up for years... as all three of the aforementioned teams did. THEN we can make big trades. Get some pitching. Maybe get someone serviceable @ 3b. Use all the money people in this board want to throw at Rowand and sign Howard long term. Look for a way to trade Burrell, even if that means eating his salary. Treat positions of need - - which CF is not, as long as we have Victorino - - as a priority.

Truth:

In keeping with your posting nasme maybe I should call myself "thin man." (If case you guys were wondering, I'm 5'8" and I weigh 210 lbs.)

People who use the anonymity of the internet to post insults aimed at almost everybody else are revealing, if not their names, at lest their self-identity: Hostile, inferior losers. If you actually had anything real to say, why not let it speak for itself?

Victorino is an excellent defensive outfielder. Offesnively he is competent if unexciting, except for his base-stealing. Unlikely ever to be an all-star but not bad. So what is your beef with him? Is is that he's in the major leagues and you have level F talent? Do people poke for at you for living at home - and you're 26? Does everybody dump on you and this is your fantasy outlet?

And if you are going to post insults, at least try to be clever about it. I know that may be well beyond your capacity, but you might at least make an effort.

To "Displaced Phil"

You make a lot of good points. However I have some small critiques.

First, on Victorino--He's a solid player, no one is questioning that. However, he's never played a full season as a starter and he is about an average hitter. You'll be lucky if he compensates for most of the loss of Rowand. You say he's the best CF in the NL East---have you heard of Carlos Beltran?! There's absolutely no comparison there. And previous posters were not comparing him to Shawn Green as a positive. Shawn Green is a terrible player. Victorino is an average player because his solid defense will negate his Green-like offensive abilities.

Second, whether you like the proposed deal (including Carrasco and Outman, which I don't), Bedard is far from an average pitcher. By most accounts he was one of the best pitchers in the AL last year.

Third, I would say that Andruw Jones is only slightly overpaid by the Dodgers. It's clear they were willing to spend more per season in order to only have to give him a two year contract. Likewise, I'm sure if the Phillies would much rather give Rowand, say, 14 million for two years than 11 million for 4 years. And in terms of talent evaluation by the Braves regarding Jones--keep in mind that they have a good CF prospect (Shafer) coming up in their system, and effectively traded Jones' salary for Teixeira's. The Phillies on the other hand, have no one (Golson?) coming up to fill an outfield position in the foreseeable future, and have not upgraded another position as the Braves have done.

Lastly, you want to trade Burrell? Now? When he's your only RH power hitter (unless you're counting on Werth)? There's no point in trading him now, it will be his last year. If you're going to trade him, no one will accept his contract. So instead of paying him 14 million to be on your roster, you're going to pay 11 million for him to play for someone else. We can finally see the end of the tunnel for getting rid of him--just wait out the year.

And to anonymous--if you think Todd is such a bad beat writer, why are you reading his blog? Just go away if you have nothing to add to the discussion rather than telling Todd how to do his job.

Trading away prospects for rental pitchers (Millwood, Garcia, Ashby) is what keeps Philly begging at the table every year for one more arm. Bedard gets you 14 or 15 wins and a 4.50 ERA. For the starting CF and a 22-year-old who won 10 of 20 starts and posted a 4.60 ERA? I don't see it, even while acknowledging Kendrick is a gamble.

Which member of this current staff is going to make it through the season? Hamels and Myers? Arm problems waiting to happen. 60-year-old Jamie Moyer? And we aren't even counting Eaton. You need the boys in Allentown to throw out there and prey for when three of your five starters are on the DL.

You don't make this staff stronger by getting one pitcher and trading three.

CHEAP!!!!!!!!!! All that talent being dealt in nashville and orlando. All the fans are hearing is philly is a 3rd world country/I mean a small market! This team is on the cusp of being great.

The phillies will end up killing the careers of jroll,utley, and howard. Maybe if the mets implode again another playoff bid? MAYBE????

The phillies owners do not seem to care if we win as long as they get there revenue.
Does anyone remember when the eagles got TO and Kearse or this yrs Boston celtics (I hate them too!)

This is a baseball town. You betta believe the phillies will raise ticket prices this year (even though they are not that good.) I for one would pay more extra money if they SIGNED SOME MARQUEE. Basic rule of business YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.Maybe this year you could have 3.5 to 4 million fans in your stadium plus playoff ticket revenues.

This team will not get better with players cut by the pirates or rule 5 picks.

I believe Jayson Stark addressed this rumor in a recent chat on ESPN. He said that the Phillies approached the Orioles and got shot down, fast. End of story.