The Zo Zone

I can already hear the wild-card chatter....

C'mon, Zo. Edge to the Mets in the rotation, but edge to the Phillies everywhere else. Better lineup (don't give me this Carlos Beltran-Carlos Delgado bullceap), better bench, better bullpen (at least at the top 4) and a better manager (you have to give the edge to Uncle Chuck the way Willie let the Mets collapse last year).

And still, yes they got Santana, but what else? Pedro Martinez?!?!?!?! This is not 1999. John Maine and Oliver Perez are frauds.

The Phillies will win the East in 2008, mark that down, BUCKO.

P.S. How about bringing back Kyle Lohse at a discounted price? Add him to the Phils' rotation and it doesn't look so bad, especially if Hamels can equal Santana in win total. Nothing is screwed here, we will be fine.

Ouch. This'll take a few days to recover from.

And Todd, that was funny how you just casually slipped in the joke about Mike Hampton being a part of the Braves pitching staff next year.

Hilarious.

You have to do it on the field....hey Johan you're not in Minnesota anymore...

Great acqusition by the Mets, but lets not buy into the hype and throw in the towel just yet. We've heard about the Mets invincibility the past 5 years whenever they added a glavine, pedro, wagner, delgado, beltran, etc. Yet the Phils won the east last year while fighting through injuries. Divisions and pennants are won in April-October not in the offseason.

Sorry Kevin, The Phils lineup isn't better. Rowan had a career year so you need to replace that. I love J-Roll but he had a career year too. John Maine should have made the All-Star team before Hamels.

Please bring Kyle Lohse back.

The Mets bullpen still sucks, there's your edge.

Yeah getting Santana isn't a good thing. The Mets a little thin in case of injuries but that sounds like a Phillie fan reaching for straws. I personally think the Braves starters are still better. We'll just have to wait and see how things turn out. I still think the Phils win the NL east easy. The Mets have an old beat up lineup. Delgado appears to be really at the end of the line. Alou has got to be 40. I like Ryan Church but I don't know if he'll help that much. The Mets still look like an old team, prone to injury with 1 real good starter. Pedro deserves respect but he's not the same pitcher he was. Can he stay healthy? I stand by my opinion that it looks like Ed Wade is running the show. The Mets don't get quality guys to fill out their roster. Another year of Endy Chavez? I'm personally more worried about the Braves.

Uh oh!

I forget to say the Phils waited out Feliz who wanted 3 years. He's actually making less than last year. Maybe with the Mets out of the picture Lohse lowers his demands and the Phils can scoop him up for 3 years. He would help. Let's pray Hamels and Myers stay healthy all season.

A 18-10 April, good years for Lidge and Myers and not too many injuries mean Jimmy was right - 100 wins. I don't care if the Mets have Santana, Gibson and Walter Johnson, it won't make a difference.

Calm down folks. The Mets just went from a 3rd place team to one that can compete with the Phillies in 2008. Hamels isnt that far behind Santana and Myers could easily have a better year than gimpy old Pedro. 3-5 starters is a tossup, and I will take the Phillies offense. bullpen and bench depth over NYM.

The Phils should take a real good look at their highly regarded prospect Carlos Carrasco in spring training. He might be ready for the big leagues. Some may argue that he has only pitched against hitters at the double A level. I could simply argue against that by looking at how well Kendrick turned out for only having pitched against hitters at the double
A level. If Carrasco turns out to be the real deal maybe that will fix our 5th starter problem. We would have one of the youngest rotations in the league with the exception of Moyer. A rotation of Hamels, Myers, Kendrick, Carrasco, and Moyer wouldn't be bad. Our bullpen could be better, but we have a good bench, and one of the best lineups in the league. Other than Santana, I think the Muts rotation is way too old and will struggle becasue of it. There bullpen is even worse than ours in my opionion, one of the reason why we swept them last season. Other than Wright and Reyes(who is very overrated in my opinion)their lineup is way too old. Like a poster said above this isn't 1999.

Todd! Todd! Todd! Have faith, man!

Or in the immortal words of The Tugger.....

"YA GOTTA BELIEVE!!!"

I am a Phils fan in Mets country so I am afraid to say this:

Bring it on.

We have a trio of players comparable to any team's trio in the game. WE have a Johan clone who is 4 or 5 years younger than Santana. Our bullpen compares to New York's.

If we want to win a World Series, we can't hope the NY teams take a few years off and hope for the best -- we need to take it! Beating the best make you the best!

With that being said, it's even more important the progress of Carrasco, Savery, the Canadian and Outman. One of them needs to turn into a top of the rotation starter in order to keep up. And I wouldn't mind seeing Mattieson throwing smoke in a Phils uniform by July.

The Phils' front two can match the Mets'.

The rest of the two rotations are a wash, who gets lucky and stays healthy. Old timers. Junk ballers. Corner painters.

When I first heard the Mets got Santana, I was bummed. But seeing those names: Pedro Martinez, John Maine, Oliver Perez and either Mike Pelfrey or Orlando Hernandez, nothing scary there.

Let's get it on!

Mathieson-Please! It's very much a shame that we as Phillies fans are grasping at straws like that. It will be very interesting to see what happens next season. Per Zo's comments I think it is more likely the Phightins will end up in 3rd than 1st. You phanaatics keep saying how thin the Mets staff is-Myers missed 2 mos last yr with a "strain". Hamels was shut down during the most important part of the season b/c his back and elbow have become connected somehow. He is so fragile not only physically but psyche wise that he wouldn't have pitched a fourth gm in the playoffs. My over under on Hamels is 25 starts and 14 victories which is excellent for a 3rd man in the rotation not an ACE. Either way it will be interesting and who ever is counting on an 18-10 April is absolutely nuts......

Either way I gotta say Lets go Phil's....

This means Pat G will have to earn his money and cred. Get a starter who can win 12 games and all will be fine. Eaton can pitch one inning and allow Lohse, Colon, even a Phillie rook from their minors to start. Other teams do it and so can we. The Roberts-Simmons years was just like that.

Doesn't this now mean that the Phils have to go out get a quality number 3 or 4 starter such as Lohse or Benson or possibly even Livan Hernandez. With the Mets making such a bold move we have to counter with something don't we? Personally, I'd like to see the Phils grab two of the previously mentioned starters. We are right on the cusp of greatness and you can definitely see that this ownership is starting to feel the pressure. I mean with the Mets getting ready to dish out a huge amount of money for the best pitcher in baseball, how then can our ownership say that 3 years and $33 million is too much for the likes of a Kyle Lohse. These are the moves that winning teams make. I say let's go Phils! but most of all let's go Pat Gillick!

for those of you that think the phillies starting rotation is better then the mets your nuts. Santana is better then hamels.Pedro Martinez and Brett myers is a push they both need to prove themselves. pedro needs to prove he will be healthy and myers needs to prove he will have the stamina to be a starter the whole season after being in the bullpen for most of last season. Maine is better then kendrick maine had more strikeouts, wins. Oliver perez is much better then Jamie Moyer. Perez had more wins and strikeouts and a much lower ERA. If anything Moyer will get worse not better.El Duque is better then Eaton. Plain and simple Eaton stinks. Basically maybe other then brett myers compared to pedro the mets starting 5 is much more reliable and better then the phillies have fun finishing #2 in the NL East. The mets are back and motivated.

the phillies will sign lohse,santana is a bigger question mark,health wise,than cole hamels,hamels will win 18 to 20 games this year for the phils.....the phils are stronger in every area,most importantly,mentally.........

I dont get why you guys think Kyle Lohse will be your savior of the rotation he is at best a .500 pitcher. Also both our bullpens stink. Wagner is better then Lidge though. Lidge is a disaster.

Santana to the Mets. Look besides the Mets collapse the last two weeks of the season, they were hands down the best team in the NL. Now they get Santana, whose world better than anyone in the NL (Peavy and Oswalt can be a close second...not too close). You just never know...just like what happened last year. But right now, the Mets are hands down the best team in the East. Remember they also got Duaner Sanchez back in the bullpen.

let's not throw in our white homer towels yet. Santana may have been a goodpick up for the Mets. However there were times in the past for the Phils that an off season signing was supposed to be the piece of the puzzle that they needed...von hayes, danny tartabull, lance parrish...just to name a few. Picking up feliz at third could be a good pick up for the phils, but the pitching after myers, hamels, and kendrick is a little shaky... I think overall, with the lineup, bench and defense, the phils if healthy could very well be the team to beat. just play hard, coach correctly, and lets see who is there in the end. Go Phils

Santana's a great pitcher, but let's not get carried away here. Last I checked he was 15-13 last year. Hamels may be just as good, each rotation has question marks throughout, and I'll take the Phillies' lineup and bullpen. Defense is a wash, and Uncle Cholly and Willie cancel each other out.

In other words, on paper they're very evenly matched. Should be another fun season.

It's time to take a deep breath and relax --
Santana has to adjust to the National League
hitters and to the support by the Mets bullpen.
Although the Phils have quietly added Jenkins
and Feliz to the offense, they need to be proactive in signing Howard (later Hamels)
to a large ($) long term contract. That will be
a real jolt of enthusiasm to qwell the Mets and
Braves.

It's time to take a deep breath and relax --
Santana has to adjust to the National League
hitters and to the support by the Mets bullpen.
Although the Phils have quietly added Jenkins
and Feliz to the offense, they need to be proactive in signing Howard (later Hamels)
to a large ($) long term contract. That will be
a real jolt of enthusiasm to qwell the Mets and
Braves.

Nice to see that some of the Met fans have crawled out of their holes, finished their 3-11 shift at their minimum wage job and decided to talk some trash. Amazing how quiet you morons were after your team completed the biggest choke job in the history of baseball.

Let's be clear:

1. The Phillies were a better team than the Mets at the end of September, today and they will be this September.
2. New York sucks, the Mets suck and the Met fans suck.

Thank you

P.S. metssuck metssuck metssuck metssuck metssuck metssuck metssuck metssuck metssuck metssuck.

Relax. Once Santana gets that big fat overpayment from the Mets, Santana's elbow and/or shoulder will be begin to ache. It'll start as a "twinge" in May, by July it'll be "strained." Perhaps "rotator cuff" or "Tommy John."

Whenever the Mets hand out the big money, expect the Mets to be disappointed.

Mets have been trowing money around for years. Where'd it get them ? I'm watchin the Braves. LETS GO METS, CHOKE.

Realistically this move just bumped the Mets up to favorite to win the division. I think it'll be real close though and you never know that's why they play the games. The Met's rotation has the edge. Santana slightly over Hamels, Maine slightly over Meyers. El Duque and Oliver Perez both had really surprisingly good years last year. Can they do it again? Kendrick had a really surprising year last year. Can he repeat? 3-5 you have to give the Mets the edge. The Phils lineup is better but everyone saying that the Phillies have the better bulpen?? As much as I hate Wags and the Muts, their bulpen is better. Wagner's down year was 34 for 39 saves and a 2.63 era. Lidge was 19 for 27 in saves and a 3.36 era. Aaron Heilman has had an era of 3.62 or lower each of the last 3 years and Pedro Feliciano had a 3.09 or lower in the past 2 years. The Phillies need everyone in their bulpen to have career years to match the Mets bulpen. Will Romero match last year? Will Madson put together a complete season? The bulpen is my biggest concern entering the season. The Mets just stepped up their game and the Phillies need to counter. Go Phils!

It's going to be a close race in the Eastern Division all year long. I doubt the Phils will continue to sweep the Mets but they really have to get off to a good start.

If both the Mets and Phils get to the post season, I favor the Mets pitching staff. I'm not sure that Lohse or Benson are going to make a difference except potentially adding depth in case of injury.

It will be an exciting year. GO PHILS!

Fortunately, there are 162 games left in the regular season. Besides, I think the Phillies could take the Mets in the NLCS.

So before Yesterday the Mets sucked, now they sign Santana and you're already handing them the NL East title? Get real. He'll pitch every 5th day.

The Phils lost to Colorado last year because of a lack of hitting, not pitching.

Utley and Burrell own Billy "The Rat" Wagner and the Phillies in general own Aaron Heilman. So bring on that Mets bullpen. The more dramatically the Phils win over the Mets, the better!

We need a very strong bullpen in '08, and we need another reliable starter. So far, I think we have filled holes, but the pitching is still a concern as Moyer is ancient and Adam Eaton flat out stinks and should be no more than a long reliever.

Maybe I'm nuts.

Am I thrilled with the signing? No. Absolutely not. But this is a move the Mets HAD to make after last year's historic collapse. With Pauly "the Weasel" now gone and Billy "the Rat" on his last legs (did somebody say Pedro? Alou? El Duque? the bullpen?), complete and total dysfunction in Beltran and Reyes and Delgado... Wright is a stud, no doubt about it. Plus, sorry, $140 million is a lot of money, Santana or not. There's that first baseman we need to sign, remember?

It's really not going to be so bad.

Why wouldn't the Phillies try to get this guy?

Is it the money or would a great pitcher not want to play in our "little league" ballpark? I'll never give up on the Phils, but why weren't we making an offer for Santana? 4 prospects from the Mets got it done and we still need pitching help...

The Phillies won't ever get this guy because 1) they never cough up the prospects and 2) they certainly won't be the team to step across MLB's status quo. Remember how precious Gavin Floyd was? Myers and Hamels are actually rarities because they survived the Phil's minor league system more than anything else. They over-hype their own prospects in their own mind, meaning they get cold feet about trading them and no one else wants to give them what the Phils think they're worth.

Secondly, they won't cause waves in MLB's financial set-up. Best recent example? Ryan Howard. They won't pay him a cent over what has already been established because that would be establishing a new high, which is something Mr. Montgomery does not want to do (wharton law dictates against it). Get him and get a real owner, who won't mind spending real money to fill out a roster (tell me a real owner would still let someone who can help your club like lohse stay out there while the mets get santana).

OK, the Mets are now a little tougher. I ain't happy, but I'm not scared either. Good stuff on the board, looks like the goosebump brigade is alive and well. Ya gotta love this blog, can you beleive only two weeks till pitchers and catchers report?

I tend to agree with Eric. Sanatana, based on results to date, is better than Hamels, who needs to pitch a whole year injury free and show he's an ace. Myers and Martinez, if both can pitch a full season, might be a push. Maine vs. Kendrick, can Maine recover from tanking in the 2nd half and is Kyle more than a .500 pitcher? Moyer and Perez, slight edge to Mets. El Duque vs. Eaton, no contest. Overall edge to Mets. If we can sign Loshe or give Carrasco a real chance, it could even out.

All that being said, what Santana probably gives the Mets is the guy who will stop losing streaks. Not sure that we have that person yet. But I like our bench and position players better, but think we are still behind in the bullpen. I don't see a runaway by either team, unless we do our usual killer April. The Braves will be a pain in the butt but a no show in the end.

Where is Mr. Met or MetsFan, thought for sure they would chime in and break our stones. And welcome back Pat H. And John in LA, I know you have some thoughts.

V, 3 of the Mets prospects in that deal were more highly regarded than the Phils top prospect. Secondly, Lohse is a sub .500 pitcher with a near 5 ERA, giving him a 3 yr $33 mil deal is insanity.

Sorry John, I must have been typing while you were posting.
Hope that the boys practice how to lay off changeups in spring training. And remember that with the Mets moving into a new stadium and the collaspe last year, they had to make a splash to fill the seats (we did the same with Thome).
V you are so right about Montgomery's style.

so what can we get for wes helms to retaliate? haha

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/30/wes-helms-to-be-dealt/

Remember that Glavine had 13 wins last year for the Muts, and Santana had 15 for the Twins. So they are replacing a 13 game winner with a 15 game winner. That's 2 games. It would have been enough to win the East last year, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and act like they just became a team thats a lock to win 100 games. That's assuming that with switching leagues, Santana can have the same success (or better). Pedro is old and a shadow of his former self, Maine is solid, but the rest is a crap shoot.

If the phillies had new owners then the Phillies - Mets rivalry could compare to the Yankees - Red Sox.

The Phillies will not counter or go one up on the Mets' latest move.

RG, you're right on both counts; Met's prospects were better and giving Lohse that kind of money is a bit crazy. My main point is the Phils, even when they do have a strong farm system, are loathe to give up a bunch of prospects. My second point is they are simply content to try and reach 90 wins every year. They're just like the Eagles in that putting out a fiscally responsible team that is competitive is better than spending more to try and actually win a (gasp!) championship. While I acknowledge they aren't the Yankees (and who besides the red sox are?), one thing I've always admired with the Yankees is price is no consideration. Will this player help us? If so, then go get him. They're the main reason money has skyrocketed for players in the past 15 years. But they also have 4 rings from the past 15 years, and you might as well add the 2 from Boston, because it wasn't until Boston tried to keep up with them that Boston won also.

Ok, V I agree with you on some points.

And to go back for a sec, the Mets prospects are perceived to be better than the Phils ones. IMO, the Twins took a bad deal, banking on two teenagers to be the centerpiece for the best pitcher in baseball. At least we aren't Minnesota, trading away KG, Johan, and Randy Moss!

As for the Yankees, they won those rings w/o the insane additions of free agents. They won with Paul O Neil, Brosius, and alot of homegrown talent. Since they went nuts with adding big $$ FAs after losing in 2001, its been nothign but hype and disappointment. Thats why they were loathe to give up their prospects for Johan this time around.

I'd liek to see ownership spend more $, but it won't always equal rings. I want them to invest heavily in scouting and signing draft picks, and then resigning their own players like howard. We can't change ownership, though, so constantly fretting about it does no good.

In the end, if I'm Gillick, I'm still on the phones tryign to get Bedard, maybe Blanton, or seeing if Kazmirs contract will become an issue, etc.

Don't worry about the Mets folks. Think of it this way, can Pedro be the pitcher he once was? If the answer is no, then I think we'll match up well. I think Santana and Hamels match up pretty well (although not perfectly) , and Brett and Pedro can be about even if Brett that number 1 or 2 that he was projected. I honestly think the only match up problems we could have will be with the number 5 spot in the rotation where we have the unknown pitcher and they have Hernandez and possibly with the number 3 spot with Kendrick vs. Mayne (just because we don't know if Kyle will be the same pitcher as last year).

Maybe it's me, but this looks like the next pitcher in a long line of Phillies slayers to come down the pike. One of the most dominant pitchers on the planet (and he's left-handed!) against a lineup of, you guessed it, left-handed hitters.

I love the Phills, but it's another year of the phans hoping that "Pat-the-Bat" pulls us through. Scary.

oh yeah, as one of the writers wrote, I think Matt Morris would be a big upgrade to our rotation regardless of how he's been the last few years (on horrible teams). If we plugged him into the 3 spot and bumped Kendrick and Moyer down a notch I think we'd be fine.

"I'd like to see ownership spend more $, but it won't always equal rings. I want them to invest heavily in scouting and signing draft picks, and then resigning their own players like howard. We can't change ownership, though, so constantly fretting about it does no good."

RG, couldn't have said it better myself. It goes through the entire organization. Even the draft: Why take a pitcher with a history of arm injuries (Savery) when you could have had someone who was compared to Josh Beckett (Porcello, or even Blackman)? The difference between them is less than Eaton's contract this year alone. I understand the draft is a bit of a ceapshoot so it's an extreme example, but time and again we see the Phils settle for second (or third) best. I'm really tired of settling, thats all.

And really, I'm worried about the Mets. I'm sure Santana will have a great year, and their lineup is old once you get past wright and reyes. At this point, though, Maine is better than Pedro and always comes up big against the Phils. Pedro just needs to eat innings, as does Hernandez. And O. Perez is like Padilla; if he ever gets it, watch out. And I don't know if it's been said, but the fact that Santana is a lefty doesn't bode well for our left-leaning lineup.

It took a magical year last year to beat them by one game. It'll take more this year. Let's start with Eaton's ERA dipping below, say, i dunno, 5?

With the Mets getting Santana, it looks like there will be even more pressure on the Phils' right-handed bats. Realistically, Howard will not be able to handle Santana (or many good left-handers for that matter) while Utley will be average at best. That's not to say the right-handed bats will do much better...I mean, he is the best pitcher in baseball. I do think it gives the Mets a psychological edge at this point, though.

Ok, this Santana thing has been so over-hyped by the media and Mets fans. Here is the reality of it: The Mets made a real nice addition to their very shaky pitching staff. Period. He isn't the best pitcher on the planet,as some Mets fans (and seemingly some sports commentators) are raving. For comparison sake, Hamels was 15-5 with a 3.38 ERA last year, Santana was 15-13 with 3.33 ERA. Here are how some other non-Johans did last year:
J Beckett 20-7, 3.27
J Peavy 19-6, 2.54
C Sabathia 19-7, 3.21
F Carmona 19-8, 3.06
J Lackey 19-19, 3.01
C Wang 19-7, 3.70
K Escobar 18-7, 3.40
J Verlander 18-6 3.66
B Webb 18-10, 3.01
R Halladay 16-7 3.71
B Penny 16-4, 3.03
T Hudson 16-10, 3.33
C Hamels 15-5, 3.39
A Harang 16-6, 3.73 (218 K's)
Santana the best pitcher on the planet? I don't think so.
And finally, the Phillies clearly have a better offense than the Mets. Offensively, go position for position and we are better at 1B (by a mile), 2B (not even close), SS, RF, and a push at C and LF. They are better at 3B and CF (CF ONLY if Beltran is healthy).

remember in the past the phillies got guys like millwood, freddy garcia, eric milton and jon lieber, and of course andy ashby... all those guys came off good seasons and had pretty good careers until they came to the phillies. only jon lieber won 17 games for us his first season here i think. some names look and sound good on paper but when it comes to perform, they don't get the job done especially pitchers going to different teams, it's a big adjustment and a lot of those guys put too much pressure on themselves to fit in and remain the same pitcher that they were before they were traded. every eye , not only in newyork, but in the nation will be on santana expecting him to have a great season and earn all the money he got to go to newyork. if he pulls an adam eaton they'll have his head. so with that said, i wonder can santana perform effectively with all that spotlight on him or will he be pressured into a bad season. if my theory is correct, then Adam eaton should have a better year than santana. that's a very bold statement but, i can't wait till the season gets under way

The Phillies won't go out and get Bedard but I just want them to add a nice bulpen piece as a counter. I think our rotation will be alright. Our rotation should be better than last year with Meyers but the bulpen is the same. For the sake of argument, say Lidge is as good as Meyers was last year and stays completely healthy. (which would be best case scenerio) If that's a push then the rest of the bulpen is the same or worse. We lost Geary who gave us about a month of good innings. We lost Alfonseca who had a good month and we didn't add any relief pitchers. Granted, the bulpen pitched better in the last month when Charlie was pitching Romero, Gordon and Meyers every night. That kind of workload isn't sustainable for a season. They need at least one more guy Charlie can count on.

Anonymous - I love the optimism! I agree that Adam Eaton will rebound this year (considering he can't get much worse, is there any alternative?). I believe Santana will end up on the DL anyway. I think the past 4 years of 200+ innings is bound to catch up with him (hmmm...perhaps more bone chips in his elbow which tend to be a frequently recurring problem). I hear they are thinking about moving back the fences at the Mets new ballpark for Santana. I guess they're already worried about him giving up too many long-balls to the Phils potent line-up after this year. I can't wait to see one of Santana's pitches get knocked onto the Scoreboard Porch at "The Bank". IMHO I just don't believe he has the mentality required to pitch in a sports city with vocal fans like New York, Philly, or Boston.

damn. this hurts. this has definitely tempered my enthusiasm for the upcoming season. living in New York and being a Phils/Eagles fan is very tough this week with the giants in the superbowl and with Santana going to the mets in exchange for slop.

15-5 15-13
3.39 ERA 3.33 ERA
177 K 235 K
1.12 WHIP 1.07 WHIP
Hamels vs. Santana

Pretty close numbers between Hamels and Santana in 2007...Hamels missed several starts which explains the lower strikeout total. Also, Hamels is still developing while Santana is in his "prime years." Additionally, this might have been a down year for Johan or could be in line with future expectations. He should also expect a boost from the shift from AL-NL, which will help some...Should be a fun race this year. I really believe that Myers vs. Pedro is a wash or edge Phillies at this point. I also believe the division will come down to 3,4,5 in the rotation. As crazy as it sounds, signing Kyle Lohse may make all the difference.

Mets fans may indeed suck but the Mets baseball team is quite formidable. Barring injuries to either side, the Eastern Division will be a dogfight all the way. I wouldn't be overconfident of the Phillies winning the division but they have a good chance.

Santana really helps the Mets in the same way he would have helped the Phillies had we acquired him.

Will you people stop whining! The last time I checked, the games weren't played on paper but out on the field. Things happen. Maybe Santana IS a horse, but wasn't Millwood, Garcia and Glavine supposed to be cut from the same fabric? Who knew Carlton would be better than Wise? When that deal went down I cursed John Quinn (truth be told, I don't think Quinn even knew what he was getting). Some guys can handle the NY fans and media. Johan ain't gonna be in "Kansa anymore, Toto." If Stand-Pat trys to match every Mets move, then there's a couple of teams in the rear view mirror that will pass him by. Throw out the first pitch and lets see where the chips fall.

For a nice image of Johan Santana as Darth Vader- http://pabaseball.blogspot.com

The question now become who becomes the primary competition for the wild card, I assume St. Louis, San Diego, Los Angelos Chicago and the Braves. If your Phillies can be w/in 4-5 gms when the end of July hits there is a chance they can pull there usual and at least make it exciting. They will probably fall 1-2 gms short due to a lack of pitching.

Prediction K. Kendrick wins 10 gms in 35 starts this yr.

Johan will be injured for half the year anyway.

I hate to say it, but Pedro pitched pretty good when he came back last year, and the few starts Myers had were pretty bad,remember? The most games Pedro has ever lost is TEN, twelve years ago. The only good thing about Myers is that he was never hurt while being a starter, so hopefully that continues. The Phils can put a decent lineup out there full of righties for left handed starters. Obviously Howard and Utley being the only lefties, so thats not so bad. I've said it before,and so have ya'll,we HAVE to get off to a good start to keep from getting to far behing to early. The Phils must have a good April!!!!

The Phillies need to sign Lohse and trade Helms, Gordon and Bruntlett or a mid-level prospect for a good set-up man.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Santana dissapoints or pulls a Freddy Garcia and is damaged goods. Santana's ERA is Sept was over 5.00 and his overall year was down from his previous years. Did he just have a down a year or is he hurt from throwing over 200 innings a year for 4-5 seasons?

Santana being hurt could also be why the Red Sox and Yankees pulled their bigger deals and be why the Mets managed to get Santana for significantly less, not even their top prospect.

Once again the naivete on this board is shocking---
The guy is not hurt he is 24 yrs old. He is not Pryor or Wood. The Dominicans throw the ball all day day long from age 5-until. 200 innings is nothing.
Garcia didn't just lose gms he lost velocity.
The Met's got Santana b/c they are wqilling to pay 20 million a year.
The Sox have invested in their staff(remember the 50 mil for the rights to talk to talk to dice k) Beckett, Schill et al.
The Yanks just spent 300 mil on Rodriguez. They can't spend 50 mil on two players in one year, even by their standards that would be folly..

Get a grip Sheeple and deal...

What makes you boys think the Mets are through, after the Santana signing? They will beat the Phillies to the punch.....Pelfry and El Duky to the Pin, they sign Lohse this weekend. Case closed.
Santana had no ego's to feed off in Minnesota. If he masters the Pedro challenge, and Beltran and Delgado wake up........good luck NL?

Great points Jay, Gillick will be looking for the quickest escape route outta town come Sept...

What a joke the Phils are.

El Duky? Its El Duque... You must be from NY, now go back in your hole.

Actually, I'm a Phillies fan......and I just told you the future......deal with it.....

The fact that some fans are just blowing this off is hilarious. Johan is going to put the Mets above 100 wins this year, no doubt about it.

truth, who is 24 yrs old and not hurt??? i hope your not talking about santana!

and jay, the muts havent signed him just yet....

I like like Lohse as a Philly. He hadn't played with an Offense until he got here. Hopefully he lands here....sends Myers back to the Pen, where he wants to be, That makes the Philles bullpen the best with Lidge as a set-up man, a role he is more likely to survive.

OK. I'm wracking my brain to remember where I read this yesterday, so please don't hang me out to dry!

Santana's numbers have gone done the last couple of years. I'm not saying is still not a threat. Just something to ponder.

Angels OF Torii Hunter, former teammate of Johan Santana, as quoted by Bob Nightengale of USAToday.com…

“The Mets are not only getting a Cy Young winner, but an absolute bulldog who’s great in the clubhouse. He’s going to dominate that league. They’re going to absolutely love him in New York…I know he’s happy, too, because he really wanted to go to the Mets. He’s always wanted to swing the wood. He can hit…So I don’t know who’s happier, Johan, the Mets, or everyone in the American League because they don’t have to face him anymore.”

Look...every Phillies fan wants to take a look at his 15-13 record last year and 3.33 ERA. Remember that's in the toughest division in baseball...Tigers, Indians, White Sox...plus they had to play the Yanks, Red Sox, Angels, Blue Jays. Now put him in the National League...his record would have been around 25-5 w/ 2.33 ERA. I can't believe you guys are comparing Hamels to Santana. Hamels is very very good...no question...but Santana great. Either way the Phils are the NL East champs and the Mets until they play a full 162 games should be considered the underdog.

Truth,
I was just speculating and gave some facts to back it up. I am not saying he is hurt or will be affecting by 5 seasons of 200+ innings in the future, just pointing out the possibility. Right around the time the Phillies acquired Freddy Garcia nobody speculated he was hurt and look what happened. And yes, his velocity went down, because he was injured. Just to set some facts straight, Johan Santana is not 24, he is 28 now and will be 29 before the start of the season. He is from Venezuela (as is Freddy Garcia) not the Dominican Republic. You said "The Dominicans throw the ball all day day long from age 5-until. 200 innings is nothing." Tell that to Bartolo Colon (who is from from the Dominican Republic) who pitched for over 200 innings for about 8 seasons and then got injured at age 31 and has never been anywhere near the same since. So Santana may be fine now, but will he be healthy for the next 6-7 years? possible but unlikely. The Red Sox and Yankees seemed to mostly be in on Santana to keep the other team from getting him, but both teams could have afforded him if they wanted too, especially the Red Sox. It was just speculation on my part that Santana's "down year" may be that he is injured or on his way there, which is why the yankees and red sox pulled their big deals fairly quickly and how the Mets managed to get Santana w/o their top prospect or a more MLB ready player. Santana hasn't even agreed with the Mets yet, or passed a physical, so lets see what happens for both teams as well as the Braves when the season actually starts.

Its just gonna get crazier til we actually start playing for real! Maybe Maine takes a dump and Perez goes back to his old crappy self and Old Duque is just out of gas like he was that day we scored 5 on him late in August(best game ever) and the Muts have pitching problems like we had last year. Who knows, maybe Eaton lives up to his contract. Ok, now I've gone to far...... lol The muts still have problems just like every other team, so we'll just have to wait and see, and I hate waiting......

What do you think Santana will be like when he is ahead 6-0.....instead of protecting a 1-0 lead. When he gets a good lead he toys with hitters. 40percent change-ups. They will be watching his pitch-count....not 8th inning with a 5 run lead. They are getting ready for the new stadium. Unless Pedro is having fun, he will sick-out again until the end of the season. Thats why they will sign another starter. Don't think it will be little brother if (El Dukey) ends up in the pen.......

I'd love to be the Greenberg brothers (Santana's agents) right now. They know they have Minaya and Wilpon by the you know what. Mets fans will burn down the new stadium if Santana doesn't get the extension and I bet the Greenberg's know that. I bet Minaya and Wilpon are walking around with their pants down around their ankles.

right on roy!!

I look at it this way folks. Essentially the Mets have swapped Glavine for Santana. On the surface, the task for the Phillies looks daunting. Glavine won I believe 13 games last year and Santana may win 20 if he stays healthy. However, the Mets could negate the upgrade with diminishing returns from many of their aging pitchers like Pedro and El Duque. It is conceivable the 2 of them could amass 7 fewer wins combined in 2008. Lets not forget Wagner who seems to choke vs top teams in key spots. He hasn't been the same since blowing a couple games to the Cards in the 2006 NLCS. Plus, they got an offense that made the 1983 Phillies young from 1-9. Well maybe not, but they had nothing on the 30 and 40 somethings that followed Rose from Cincy that year talentwise. The Phillies need to win 90 games to get in the tournament regardless. What matters is being hot at the right time. It may be a concern to play Santana in 3 games in a potential NLCS, but he's never been one to go past 7. Given how bad the Mets BP is, I'll take my chances.

I still think the Phils have a slight edge over the Mets. The Mets yet have to prove that they won't fold like a house of cards once the games start to mean something. The Mets also, somehow, got a decent year out of Oliver Perez in '07. The OP has yet to put together back-to-back respectable seasons. Maine collapsed in the second half. Santana is a rare talent, but he too faded down the stretch last year - which means he'll fit in perfectly on that club. Also, remember that Santana is basically taking Glavine's place in the rotation. So if you're calculating how many more wins the Mets will tack on, you have to base it on the Glavine-Santana formula. What I'm REALLY wondering is this: Up until yesterday, Minaya was by FAR the most overrated GM in baseball (with Cashman second). So how did he manage to rip off the Twins so badly? Could it be that the Red Sox and Yankees weren't really offering who they said they were? Or do baseball insiders know something about Santana's health that we don't? Time will tell....

Only thing you can be sure of is that some unexpected things will occur. For the Phills last year it was the fine pitchinf of Kendrick and the poor pitching of Eaton Things like that happen every year. Santana gives the mets an edge in the rotation. For the Phills we need Lidge to be the pitcher he was a few short years ago when he was dominating. Then there is always the injury problem, who will stay healthy and who wont? We need injury free years from Cole and Brett. Burrel must have a consistent year. We realy need a right handed hitter to hit between Utley and Howard and one to hit after Howard. Burrel might fill one spot but the second spot may not be on the roster. Werth hits lefthanders and has the speed you'd want in the 3rd spot but he only figures as a platoon player at this point.

This deal could be a killer for the Phils. The Mets clearly have better starting pitching than the Phils do. And I don't know why people think the Phils offense is going to be so good. Rollins probably had a career year last year. He will be good this year, but not as good as last year. Utley and Howard are probably givens. But after them? I hope Victorino turns out to be a star, but he could turn out to be OK but not great. Burrel likely will hit like he did in the first half of the season, not the second half. Do the other hitters fill you with confidence? Not me. And there are far too many strikeouts in this lineup. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a great offense here. Maybe a good one, but not enough to offset suspect pitching. After Hamels and Meyers, what do they have? Eaton, Durbin, and Moyers? They can't get anybody out. Kendrick? Maybe he'll duplicate last year's performance, but I wouldn't count on it.

Hey Zeus, Truth is telling us Santana's 24 years old, and Jay is anointing Lohse, a sub .500 pitcher with an ERA in the high 4s a savior. I'm sure you two fraidy cats were predicting that the Phils would finish behind the Mets last yeast as well. If you two prognosticators are so brilliant and so confident why aren't you rich off of your sports knowledge? Get off the ledge people, or go root for another team.

no doubt werth will start in satana games and burrell will probably hit between utley and howard in those games too. feliz helps also because he is a right handed hitter. the signing of feliz gives the phillies way more flex in the line-p because he is a much needed right handed hitter. especially with the southpaw santana going to the mets. but like i said earlier, what happened to eaton and garcia could easily happen to santana. Change of scenery is not always a good thing. too much pressure is but on a good pitcher to perform like he is expected to his first year with his new team that will no doubt sign him to figures beyond all of our wildest dreams. i expect santana to have a bad firt year with the mets and i perdict that Adam Eaton will have a much better year his second with the phillies

The Phillies have suspect starting pitching and 4 starting position players who hit below .260 last year (Jenkins, Feliz, Burrel, and Ruiz). I don't see this team as a first-place team. Even the Braves might finish ahead of them since they have better starting pitching.

mike the phillies also had wes helms and gregg dobbs and abraham nunez last season and lets not forget jose mesa and the rest of the gang, yet they still beat out he braves and took advantage of a mets meltdown good teams can do either 2 things, they can run away with the division, or they can take advantage of opertunities given to them in the stretch. you're almost trying to give the credit to charlie manuel for there late success. every time he put mesa in the game i was like he must really not want to win this pennant. people we did it with the people we had last year and we really only lost one good pl;ayer in rowand, but we can make up for that. yhe bullpen is much better than last year simply because mesa is not in there and madson is coming back. ye rotation is better because myers replaces j.d durbin, j.a happ, and all those ther douchbags we sent out there to try to fill in for our injured rotation. if we keep our confidence, something this team lacked in years prior to last, then we can compete with anybody on the field. forget about all the names and numbers on paper

Lets face it.
Flash is old and brittle.
Long career and appears to be a good guy, but he is 39 going on 49 and has had serious shoulder issues. All of you folks who see Madson, Romero, FLASH and Lidge as the "final four" need to take a realistic look at the facts.

Not that I disagree with Michael, but I just want to clarify that Mike and Michael are not the same person here.
Last year the Phillies won the division because the Mets collapsed at the end. For most of the season the Mets were the better team. It looks to me like the Mets and Braves have improved themselves more than the Phillies have. The Phillies have lost some offense in losing Rowand (though I don't think he will repeat last year's success). I'm not convinced Lidge will be a reliable closer. Meyers is a good addition to the rotation, but losing Lohse--admittedly not great but better than what will replace him--hurts. I hope having Madson back will make a significant difference, but who knows? Madson wasn't always so great when he did pitch (but he should be better than Mesa or Alfonseca--so would my sister). Will Romero repeat last year's performance? Maybe, but his history suggests no. I hope everything goes great for the Phillies. I am a rabid Phillies fan and maybe I am rendered unduly pessimistic by memories of the '64 collapse and all the years of futility. But I don't see this team as a serious contender for the division title.

I notice realism is starting to appear, and that is good. Only the Phillies could blow this. They have a 3 perenial MVP candidates, a true ace and a possibly a 40-45 save guy. By any standard a rock solid foundation. They have good speed at the top of the line-up and depth on the bench. The only thing they're missing is another starter that can give you 12-15 victories and another 300 hitter.
You have to undrstand how the Phillies work to really see how only they can butcher this and not acquire those things.
Stay with me. They sign Garcia get everyone excited, including me, sell maybe 1000 addt'l season ticket packages as a result. They knew he was hurt. They knew they had to pay Ryan 10 million this year. They knew they would get the old A for effort that we always give them after being drilled with a "were a small market team" for years. If they signed a Maddox (I think he was a free agent last year) He pitches well they have to keep him. This way they don't, they transfer the 10 million to Ryan; the Phillies break even. You the fan have the illusion that they tried. In a true sports city not used to losing and "were a small market team" campaigns, such foolishness would never be accepted.
Fine, agreed they don't HAVE to pay Ryan what he deserves. At least demand they pony up the extra year for Lowell/re-sign Rownad in the future, we have suffered long enough.
Especially when CBP rakes in money.....

Tell me you understand.

we don't need another starter that can give us 12-15 victories. we need another starter that would have an era 4.50 (at the highest) and below. as bad as Adam eaton was last year, he did win 10 games. 2 more victories and he'd be that starter everyone is asking for but he'd probably have an era of 7.00. A pitcher can certainly lose a game but they're not nearly as responsible for winning a game as a good offense is. don't get me wrong, a ouple of 2-1 victories or even a 4-3 victory and your pitcher deserves that win but what about the 1-0 losses and the no-decisions that they get as well. a pitcher as bad as eaton was last year could win 16 games with a good offense that bails him out. case in point a lot of people looked at Kyle Loshes record last season when the phillies got him and probably said here we go again getting another losing pitcher at the trade dead-line. but his era was just above 4 i think and he had not lost a game the rest of the regular season with the phillies because he had an offense to back him up. If the mets bats continue to choke or decide to not show up everytime santana pitches, then what good is santana with no offense behind him. (15-13) last season.

Also let give the phillies more credit. the mets ahad a mental collapse at the end of the season and people keep using that as an excuse why the phillies were not better than them and they keep saying the mets were the better team. but could the mets have felt the wrath of getting swept by the phillies those last few series and just shut down the rest of the season. I remember their anger and emotions towards the philles after they got swept. Lo Duca and Wright especially.

FYI nameless the Phils lost 2/3 of the games in which they scored fewer than 4 runs. They
won 2/3 in those they scored 4 or more. Many of those games they lost they lost due to afonseca/mesa/madsen. They often took a lead into the 6th. They need a solid 3 man. Moyer/Kendrick/Eaton can win a total of 22 for the 4/5 slots.
Eaton sucked he had a 6.5+ ERA. To mention him him as a savior makes you(whoever you are nameless) a victim of Phillie Thought.

I can't believe what sports writers are saying about the Santana signing. I just read that NOW, the Mets are the top team in the NL.
If you want to talk about pitching, what about Arizona, San Diego or Colorado? Does Satana also bat 1 through 9 and play all the infield and outfield positions at the same time he's pitching? Wow, I'm gonna but my ticket now.

How many World Series did the Twins win with him? Compare the rest of the Twins team output last year against the Mets output of last year and see what you get. Should we pencil them in for the series or not?

Please respond oh wise ones.

The Phillies won 12 of 18 games vs the Mets (including the last 8), and over a full 162 game season, they won 1 more game than them. This despite injuries to their starting rotation (Garcia, Hamels, Lieber) their bullpen (Madson, Gordon, Myers), their IF (Utley and Howard) and their OF (lost Bourn and Vic in the same game). Yet it was the Mets that collapsed. Typical Negadelphia fans.

no one said eaton was a savior, i said we need a pitcher with a lower era rather than a higher win total. I said eaton could have one 16 games last year and still had an era approaching 7. I did't say he would magically drop his era this year and be our savior i was just saying pitchers win/loss totals don't add up to a good pitcher. a guy with a lower era is likely to go 7 or 8 innings. and that's what we need. I never said that was going to be eaton. I would hope it is but i never said it would be.
i know my facts truth and i kow that the phillies were the better team at the end of the season and until the season starts they remain that. names and numbers mean nothing (see Garcia, wes helms etc.) It's what you do on the field. hell the phillies had a terrible meltdown in april last season too so that meltdown excuse for the mets is getting old. maybe they were just starting to show their true ages. and the younger one just flat out wore down.

Once the posters fail to recongize the deeper problems with this franchise. I'll let it go for now.
As far as the ERA vicories double speak. Nameless, the lower the ERA generally the more victories. Particulary if you on a team like the Phillies that leads the League in runs. Even though they put up 9-12 runs in losing efforts 8-10 times a year.

sports writers are always looking at names and numbers to try to detemine whose the better team and the team to beat but often times they are wrong because it's a team game not a one man show.
switching to football. yeah they were right about the patriots, but the Giants? both the Cowboys and Packers were labled the better team with better players yet the giants are the ones in the superbowl. in the beginning of the season my sister could quarterback beter than Eli Manning but now he is a superbowl starting QB. Cleveland was better than Tennessee but Tennessee was the ones in the playoffs.
Back to baseball We can let them talk their smack about Santana making the mest the better team, sure it looks goog on paper, but they still gotta play the game. hell the nationals could win the east for all we know

I agree Joe. Look at San Diego. Peavy was the most dominant pitcher in the NL last year, the 2nd most dominant in all of baseball behind Beckett, and SD didn't even make the playoffs. I am not saying that Santana doesn't make the Muts better than they were a week ago, but it doesn't crown them kings of the NL or even the NL East at this point. I don't know how a team goes from Rat Wagner saying they are the 3rd best to the clear favorite with one pitcher?

Pitchers and Catchers report in 2 weeks. Its almost time to stop talking and start playing. I can't wait.

If thats the case truth than that would make Hamels clearly better than Satana
Hamels (15-5) santana (15-13) even though santanas era was 3.33 and hamels was 3.38