The Zo Zone

Ooooh, Todd! Thanks for the link to Frenchy's!I love grouper!!!! Yummmm!!

Since I'll be in Clearwater at the end of March, can somebody please give me an idea of which Frenchy's to go to? And where in relation to Brighthouse Field they are?

Not very surprised about Leiby's retirement. I'm sure I'll get some flack, but he was always one of my favorite Phillie.

Oooops! Little problem with my computer! LOL!

Toward the end of his tenure with the Phils,I never had the feeling Leiby was playing the game as hard as he could. When Travis Lee showed up, the prevailing attitude on the team seemed to change. When Aaron Rowand came, it all changed back. In spring training that first year, you coud see Rowand lobbying different players, particularly David Bell and Pat Burrell. Then Alou and the rest of the "country-club" guys got moved for a bag of beans each, Burrell decided to play baseball, and the Phils started to be fun to watch again. I hope they keep it up without Rowand--they probably will, now that they believe in themselves again.

Toward the end of his tenure with the Phils, I never had the feeling Leiby was playing the game as hard as he could. When Travis Lee showed up, the prevailing attitude on the team seemed to change. When Aaron Rowand came, it all changed back. In spring training that first year, you coud see Rowand lobbying different players, particularly David Bell and Pat Burrell. Then Alou and the rest of the "country-club" guys got moved for a bag of beans each, Burrell decided to play baseball, and the Phils started to be fun to watch again. I hope they keep it up without Rowand--they probably will, now that they believe in themselves again.

I thought Mike Lieberthal was a good ballplayer. Had he not had so many leg injuries he would have put together a really nice career. As it was he had the misfortune of being a very good player on some pretty average Phillie teams. In the end all the leg injuries left him a shadow of his former self. I'd rate the Phillie catchers I've seen in the following order:
Darren Daulton
Mike Lieberthal
Bob Boone
Benito Santiago
Johnny Oates
Carlos Ruiz
Mike Ryan
Clay Daryple
Lance Parrish (excuse me I puked writing his name)
Does anyone else think Carlos Ruiz is anything more than a career backup catcher? Bill James thinks he's going to have a pretty big year. He can run pretty well but he is just so small. I just hope he's smart and can learn like Daulton did. Daulton really struggled to hit consistently his first couple years then became a beast.

"Lance Parrish (excuse me I puked writing his name)"

johnnyp, I was laughing so hard, I couldn't catch my breath!!!!

Glad you guys are on board with me about Leiby! I hated how everyone booed or groaned when he came to bat his last year in Philly.

I was at the game when he hit a 3 run HR (probably his last HR) for a curtain-call! That shut everyone up in a hurry!

Leiby, as he was affectionately reffered to; was certainly part of the problem in Philadelphia for years. He symbolized an era of non-chalant play espoused by players like Abreu, Burrell, Lee, Wolf and started with a stud five tooler by the name of Von Hayes. It was no surprise that Leiby and Wolf decided to leave when Howard, Rowand, Rollins et al began to hold their teammates accountable. Utley did so thru example. He was one of the players that felt Rollins was to vocal about the style of play on those teams. Yet another sad indictment of this organization.

Leiby injuries or not was an avg player on a below avg team. The fact that he may be 2nd best catcher in team history is a reflection on this franchise and probably a reason they have lost 10,000 games. The fact that Ruiz makes the the top ten after one season is also a very sad indictment. Why not add Coste.

That the Phillies allowed their team to be led by such laid back personalities is an indictment on their mgmt and overall organization.
They willingly signed Leiby to a long term contract in spite of the forementioned attitude.

The example of Lieberthal shows just how
classless the Phillies organization is.

Norma, I post because it is my 1st amendment contitutional right.

Leiby was a good catcher and the pitchers always seemed to like him. If the Phillies have any class as an organization (and I'm not sure that they do), they would honor his retirement. I'm not talking about Leiby night, but how about throwing out the 1st pitch of the home opener and letting him get a last round of applause from the fans.

I think that's a great idea, Josh M! I was imoressed that all the evening news shows mentioned it. Sometimes in Philly, it's "out of sight, out of mind"

Truth, thanks for the clarification! LOL!

Bob Boone had some very, very good years in the mid-70's. Even started an All Star game, with three other Phils as starters. Lieby was solid, but he's not the player Boone was.

And I'd put Keith Moreland ahead of Lance Parrish.

I also think Phillies should honor Lieby, fans never really had a chance to say goodbye after 13 years here. A few years ago, Phillies signed Doug Glanville (after he announced he was leaving the game) to a one day contract, which allowed him to retire as a Phillie. Would be nice to see team do the same for Lieby.

Ooooh! Another great idea, Larry!

Leiby thought of retiring when the Phils opted not to re-sign him. He only agreed to the Dodger's contract 'cause it was his *home* team. I bet he'd LOVE to retire as a Phillie!

If we're talking best Phils catchers (at least over the past 30 years), Darren Daulton's '92 season is probably the best (.270 AVG, 27 HR, 109 RBI's, and 11 SB), followed closely by Lieberthal's '99 (.300, 31, 96, 1). But don't forget about Bo Diaz (very solid), Ozzie Virgil (an All-Star), and the Tank, Todd Pratt. Heck, didn't Johnny Estrada, Bobby Estrella, John Russel, Gary Bennett, Steve Lake, and John Wockenfuss put up better numbers than Parrish?

Lieby was the Phillies first round draft pick as a undersized catcher coming out of high school. He had a couple of productive years with the Phillies. Following the Ed Wade inspired, Scott Rolen debacle, Lieby, along with Abreu, Burrell, and David Bell were among those to cash in on the Phillies spending bonanza. He never earned a nickel of it.

In his very last season with the Phillies he collected $7.5 million. On July 23, 2006 I attended a business person's special against the Padres. Lieby came to bat with 0 homeruns, 9 RBI's and barely hitting .200. Those are the same numbers posted by Lieby last year for a cool $million.

If you listen to none other than Johnny Marz, you would learn that not only was Lieby a cancer in the clubhouse but that the pitchers loathed pitching to him. He couldn't call a game after 10 years and he had no arm coupled with a lack of desire to throw out runners. You never saw Lieby walk out to the mound. As a result, pitchers would often prefer to pitch to Todd Pratt, Chris Coste, or Sal Fasano.

So enough of the fond memories of Lieby. The Phillies are much better out without him. Ruiz is a very nice upgrade. I hope Lieby enjoys his retirement on the left coast.

Truth...what you say does have truth and merit. But your words come dripping across with anger and sarcasm. I really don't care by people may perceive you as more credible in your points if you tone down your gripe with the organization.

I believe Lieby was a bum with the Phillies and I was ecstatic to see him go. I was surprised that Ed Wade didn't sign him down in Houston. I think he stole money and was a huge part of the Phillies losing ways for a long, long, time.

I remember Paul Hagen writing a piece on his getting his 1000th hit about three years ago. It took Lieby like 12 years to get 1000 hits. What the hell kind of achievement is that?

So let's just say good bye to Lieby and let him go. I doubt they'll be retiring his number. What number did he wear anyway?

I know, I know ....

Lieby deserved $7.5 million in 2006 but Howard is overpaid at $7 million because he strikes out too much.

Maybe Lieby can come back and play 1st base for the Phillies. We'll never have to pay him more than $7, ......promise.

Thank you Tigger, for recongizing the simplicity of the argument. MLBPA contract or not.
Obviously, Howard did not know what the Phillies were offering if he did he should have asked for $12,000,000; since it is an either or proposition. His agent would have more than enough ammo!

Andy Seminick, Stan Lopata and Valmy Thomas were also fine Philly catchers. And, please, let's not forget Todd Pratt.

Darren Daulton
Mike Lieberthal
Bob Boone
Benito Santiago
Johnny Oates
Carlos Ruiz
Mike Ryan
Clay Daryple
Lance Parrish (excuse me I puked writing his name)

LOL! I remember Lance Parrish when he was with Detroit. He was one of the best all around catchers in the game then. I don't know what happened to him but he was terrible with the Phils. Probably the money went to his head plus he was apparently on the decline when he got here. The fact that he is listed below Clay Dalrymple (where he belongs) shows how bad he was here.

I think Boone was the best catcher the Phils ever had (but a terrible base runner). He was good at handling pitchers and he was a clutch hitter. If it wasn't for 93 I doubt as many people would have fond memories of Daulton.

I never got the idea Lieberthal wasn't trying hard. He just wasn't that talented. He fit in well with those terrible teams of the mid to late nineties. Good players surely would have been frustrated to be on those teams.

After watching this team from about 1956 on, I have to say I agree with James L. Bob Boone also gets my vote. Handling pitchers, defense, calling games, he was really very good. Dutch and Leiby may have had few better statistical seasons, but Boone was as hard nosed as they came and a manager on the field.
Personally, I thought Leiberthal was mailing it in his last few years here, for that, I vote no night for him.

Yo Truth, if you subsitiute inept for classless, you might find a more receptive audience for your arguments. Just saying....

liberthal was a over paid back up,who cashed in on one good year.couldnt call a game,couldnt throw out pat burrell and played the game like he was doing it a favor..............goodbye u bum

Amazing how so many people seem to have an inside source into the Phillies clubhouse so as they judge with such certainty about who was "nonchalant" or "laid back". Or maybe they are just parroting the scrappy scrapple eater WIP moron line...Oh yeah, I happen to think that Carlos Ruiz has proven himself as a starting MLB catcher.

nice william! couldnt throw out the 'bat' now thats funny as hell!!

Glanville was a class guy and an area product (Penn Grad), so that gesture made sense. Lieby is a Cali guy and let him stay there. By the way, the correct spelling of his name is "LOBerthal".

I have fond memories of Lieberthal despite the fact he made 7.5 mil in each of his last 3 seasons and became a liability behind the dish. His career was altered by injury and despite all that he went on to become one of the best Phils backstops of all-time.

As you can see from the comments, Norma and others, the only reason why Phillies fans hated Lieberthal was that they didn't like his personality, or to be more precise, they didn't like the way his personality came across on TV. Totally non-objective. It clearly had nothing to do with his actual production, which was usually pretty good for a catcher.

To a Phillies fan, all that matters is for a player to LOOK like he's trying hard. Producing results is secondary. In that sense, they'd all rather look good and lose than look bad and win. Is it any wonder why this team has a losing history? The ownership group is stupid, but the reason why they're stupid is that too often they try to cater to the preferences of the fans, instead of just doing the smart thing.

BREAKING - Jayson Stark is reporting on ESPN.com that the Phillies have agreed to terms with Pedro Feliz (late of the Giants, .253/20/73 in '07, but an excellent defensive 3B) as their new third baseman.

Lieberthal was a bum except for two seasons. Let's move on to Pedro Feliz. He is a significant upgrade over Helms/Dobbs/Bruntlett.

GO PHILS!

It's not that the Phillies had one individual that they disliked; we remember all the years the team was mismanaged. It may be simply that players like Leiby symbolize the "we are a small market team" era. Remember the 10-15 yrs of "we're a small market team". Funny how that started after mgmt realized that they were fortunate and lucky in '93; that they would never again get a team that wanted to win so badly, so cheaply, so late in their careers. Mgmt realized it was highly unlikely to happen again. So they went with personities that symbolized the era. Gruff looking, so called macho guy's that couldn't play a lick. Lieby was at the forefront. Burrell is a perfect example. Guy's like Wolf and Bell etc fit the bill as well.
In my opinion it's not so much Leiby per say but the mgmt's direction during this period. Their attempt to pull the wool over our eyes with a symbolism of an era(one team actually) instead of starting anew, finding and paying talent. It's no wonder Rolen wanted out; he didn't fit the bill, he was clean cut/shaven, he played hard he didn't drink or womanize. Instead of the Phillies showing class and building a team around a class act like him they stayed with the losers and sent him packing for player's they thought would fit in and accept losing b/c "were a small market team". You the fans have forgotten these shenanagans, I as a true fan have not! It's really ashame and is very insightful to the fact that the Phillies fans have been so brainwashed that there are calls for a "Leiby" night at the stadium. Think about what he symbolized for this city, this mgmt and this team.
The most disheartening point for me in all this is that while the Phillies are clearly INEPT they have taken the hearts and souls of their fans to the abyss along with them.
It's so sad that fans care more about an organization that sold them "were a small market team" for years, than R. Howard being pissed,non-productive and underpaid. This small market team resided in a city that happens to be the fifth largest city in the country with rabid supportive sports fans that they didn't care about.

I'm actually starting to wonder if it's the Phillies ownership group that was smart enough to take advantage of this mentality in it's fans.
Now that actually may be Capitalism at its finest. Classless but Capitalisitic, and this is a Capitalistic society and in Capitalism FOOLS(FANS) and their money seperate rather quickly....
Timmy hope you stayed with me.....

Where's Todd at? ESPN is reporting the Phils have signed Pedro Feliz... I assume this means the end of Wes Helms' stay?

Truth: If Howard is pissed and non-productive because he thinks he is underpaid, you just made the argument on why they should be cautious on giving him a long term deal. If someone signs a bigger contract 2 years after he gets his (which someone surely will), I guess you will defend him for being pissed and unproductive then?

All that being said, I think he understands how this process works and will be productive, whether he get 7 or 10M.

Can we trade Helms for another Crab Fries stand at the Bank? We gotta cut that line down.

Nameless, that was really a minimal part of my overall point.
Either way where was the caution with Utley, Burell, Abreu, Bell, Leiby, Garcia(who we knew was injured), Lieber, Wolf, et al.
Not into discussing Ryan today. The board and the Phillies know our feelings.

Good one, jimmymack!

I've never even had the Crab Fries, because I can't stand the line! I don't think Chickie and Pete's mind losing my business, though.

I had bleacher seats for a Mets game last year, but missed half the game since I couldn't keep my eyes off the Crab Fries line. LOL! I did happen to catch Howard's walk-off HR in the 10th to win the game!!!

jimmymack is correct about the crab fries. Norma if you have not had the fries, visit one of Chickie's and Pete's places, the closest of which is at 15th & Packer. The line is too long at the Cit.

However I don't think C & P's will take Helms in a trade. He drops the ball too much.

Truth, chill, brother. I'll take you over to Chickie's & Pete's for crab fries. I think it will bring happiness to your life.

I have had the crab fries at 15 & Packer. Good memories! Maybe I will brave the lines at CBP this year.