The Zo Zone

Pay the man what he wants...don't burn another bridge!

Hopefully more money will enable him to use his glove a little better and learn how to throw to second, oh and know how to situationally hit.

Hopefully more money will enable him to use his glove a little better and learn how to throw to second, oh and know how to situationally hit.

"The bottom line is this, frankly, we like to pay players what they're worth," Ruben Amaro said.

Yeah, and reigning MVP's are worth $900,000 a year, right?

Instead of treating this as a special case and not starting down the wrong path with one of their core superstars, the Phils toed the MLB line and lowballed Howard last year because they could. Nice.

You don't know what was actually offered to Howard last year, before settling on the $900k. Plus, it was after 1 year, and a record increase - so stop with the low ball stuff. I think a $7 mill deal for this year would be more than appropriate. See Pat Burrell when you talk about big contracts too soon.

Ryans Glove...seriously? Situational hit? You want the best power hitter in the game to situational hit? Like ground out to the right side with a man on second? Me, I'll take the 50 homers, 150 RBI and 200 k's every time, and let the 2, 7, and 8-hole hitters situationally hit.

Tim...I must have missed Pat's 58-HR, MVP season.

And I do know that the Phillies offered Howard a 900,000 renewal the year after he won the MVP award.

My point is it is not good for your asst GM to be quoted in a story about the unhappy franchise player saying the organization pays the players what they are worth, and the reigning MVP was obviously worth 900,000 to them last year, when a good-faith offer might have been $100,000 more so Howard could have had a record-setting contract for non-arbitration eligible players.

This is also not a good sign:

More Amaro: "At this particular moment, we didn't get to the finish line with this particular deal. Can we do it in the future? Perhaps."

Perhaps? Now that is confidence inspiring that Howard will be here long-term. How about this, Rube...can we do it in the future? We intend to.

The Philadelphia Phillies organization are cheap bastards. At this point, I don't believe either Howard or the Phillies want a long-term deal. I don't think the Phillies project Howard as a first-baseman and that he is best suited as a DH. He also has too many strikeouts and is not in the greatest physical shape.

For Howard's part he is pissed that the team is trying to lowball him after a rookie of the year and MVP award. He might be able to max out his salary by going to arbitration each year and then get the hell out of here in 2011 and go be DH for the Red Sox or Yankees for boku bucks. Playing year to year means he will really have to consistently put up big numbers.

Howard will never be offered the kind of deal Utley got. He lacks the athleticism to play out a 7 year contract at 1st base for the Phils. It is not unlikely that Utley will be the 1st baseman when Cardenas is ready to play 2nd base in the majors.

So let's just enjoy Ryan while we have him and wish him the best of luck.

The $900,000 he got last year was fair for a player with his experience and production. It was the most ever offered to anyone in a similar situation including Pujols. Had Howard been willing to sign long-term, he would have gotten much more than that (obviously we don't know exactly how much), but he chose not to. That's on him. So now he is arbitration eligible which means for the next 4 years he will get what an independent arbitrator thinks he is worth -- unless he signs a long-term deal before then. In short, the Phillies are not cheap and Howard has nothing to complain about. The people who want to complain about the Phillies being cheap are always grasping at straws. A $100 million-plus payroll, long-term deals for Utley and Rollins (ALSO MVP caliber players) and the money they will be paying Howard under arbitration are not the indicia of a "cheap" franchise. And if there are people here who are so convinced the Phillies are too "cheap" to win, explain to me why the Yankees haven't won a World Series since 2000 despite having the highest payroll and how the Cardinals won in 2006 with a smaller payroll. Adding a few million more in payroll here or there guarantees nothing short-term, but can certainly tie your hands from improving your team in the future.

Hey anon, it's called when you have men on base and your down in the count 1-2 you don't strike out almost every time...duh.....

Howard puts peoples fanny in the seats, plus concession plus parking plus souvenirs...come on PHILLY open up your wallet for a guy that has paid you dividends worth 4x his salary in the last two years...and more homers are to come!

Knowing the history of the Phillies organization for many years, I would fully agree that they are unequivocably cheap bastards. They are notorious not only for lowballing players but using unethical tactics to do so. Most recently was the case of Joe Borowski where the Phillies leaked out B.S. medical information in order to drive his price down. While he did not pass the Phillies physical guys like Freddy Garcia and Flash Gordon did. Borowski let the American League in saves last year.

I can tell you that Ryan Howard did not feel the Phillies offer was fair and his opinion is really the only opinion that counts. The Phillies biggest nightmare is if Howard has another really big (50+) homerun year. That means next year at arbitration he becomes perhaps the highest paid 1st baseman in the majors in the range of $16-18 million a year.
Last year Giambi made over $23 million, Delgado $14.5 million, Derek Lee $13 million and Albert Pujols $13 million.

We have role players like Werth, Dobbs, Taguchi, Bruntlett, Snelling, and Coste because the Phillies are cheap bastards constantly seeking the cheapest alternatives. They continue to look at medical mysteries like Otsuka whose forearm injury all of a sudden became an elbow injury.

We wouldn't be having the conversation of how cheap the Phillies are if they had a farm system that consistently produces a surplus of talent, not only to fill their needs but have something to trade as well. Since we have no one on the farm and nothing to trade, we must sign free agents. The Phillies are sweeping out the corners to find the cheapest help they can.

I don't know what the debate is about. The Phillies are cheap bastards. We don't have the farm system that teams like Cleveland, Colorado, Arizona, Milwaukee and Boston do. That's in largest part to the cronyism and nepotism that occurs within the organization and they have so many hangers-on scouts and coaches that they are not identifying or developing talent. Why because it is cheaper to do business that way.

Yes, Cleveland, Colorado, Arizona and other teams can win with low payrolls because they produce a surplus of talent. That is not the case with the Phillies. So let's stop fooling ourselves.

I definitely agree that Ryan Howard puts butts in the seats and concession stands at the ballpark and beyond. His value along that of Rollins and Utley obtains from the fact that they are not only productive on the field but produce large amounts of revenue off the field.

Pay up Phillies. Chase some of those moths out of your wallet.

why is everyone who posts on here so quick to spend the phillies money.

Howard has one year last year and yes it was an MVP year. But the way you treat guys who are still under the teams control for multiple years is to buy outh those years at probably about 75% of what he would get in the open market, with the deal being back loaded. That is a win-win for both sides. if howard wouldn't accept that screw him. Let him play out the string and get a boat load of players in a trade, sign him at the end, or if he gets hurt, thank him for his service and his refusal to lock up his financial security.

So long as you agree that Ryan Howard, ROY & MVP & most prolific early HR producer in the history of the game, is worth keeping around long-term, if not for the duration of his MLB career, it comes down to this and only this:

Will the Phillies' foot-dragging when it comes to a long-term deal the past two years cause Howard to not resign with them in or before 2011?

I happen to think it won't, so long as the deal is sweet enough, money erases all grudges.

The best way to look at the Phillies approach is lowball. That's a tactic that cheap teams like the Phillies use because that is what they know. They tried to lowball Joe Borowski after leaking out the bogus medical information about him. Because of that talented free agents really don't want to talk to the Phillies. Many are quite wary of their tactics.

The net result of their lowball approach to free agency? Chris Snelling, So Taguchi, Chad Durbin, Rule 5 players, and generally players nobody else really wants.

I am mildly amused by fans who seem very concerned about the Phillies spending so much money. Bill Conlin calls Citizens Bank Park the "Money Pit" and he is quite correct. The Phillies are not only raking in huge amounts of cash but they are hoarding it.

Since the Phillies seem disinterest in developing players in their farm system, they will not have players to trade or fill their needs. That means going out into the free agent market. The Phillies have to stop being cheap and lowballing players. Unfortunately that won't happen until this team is sold.

I agree with TonyO above who says that Ryan Howard's opinion is the only opinion that counts regarding whether he was lowballed. After winning Rookie of the Year and MVP, and being featured in Phillies promos selling tickets and merchandise, he seemed to feel like they lowballed him. By not taking a multi-year deal he was sending a message. If Howard has the hutzpah to simply go to arbitration every year he will force the team to trade him by 2009 or 2010 because they will not want to go into his free agency year and risk losing him for nothing. That what happened to Mark Texiera in Texas and there have been many others.

So we can safely let Ryan Howard speak for himself, which I believe he already has. We will be hearing more about this shortly as the arbitration period begins.

Clearly the Phillies are a cheap organization and clearly attempt to lowball players.

the number of teams who would do something differently in this situation: 0 of 30

the Phillies gave Burrell a huge deal when they didnt have to and the fans decided to hate Burrell for it.

trust me, Howard will get PAID. does anyone realize that Johan Santana hasn't gotten a big contract yet and he's been a stud for years!! look at miguel Cabrera as well!

stop calling the phillies cheap and just get over it. they have a top 10 payroll and hold onto their good young players. Howard is under the phils control until 2011, so enjoy.

This is all silly commentary that only reflects the fact that most fans have no business running a baseball team. Ryan Howard is only "worth" what the market will pay him. There is no market for a player in his position and that is the agreement that the union that represents him has come to. Moreover, the economic realities of baseball only, and necessarily, reflect the system in place, and it would make ABSOLUTELY no sense to f that all up because you don't want a petulant baseball player to get in a tizzy.

I imagine some will say a happy ball-player is a better ball-player, but I disagree yet again. A determined ball-player is a better ball-player and if Howard is at all determined to get the big contract, he won't allow being treated fairly (fair being defined by reality) to cause him to play poorly. And if in 3 years he doesn't want to resign with the phillies out of some sort of spite, then that's a bridge to be crossed when it comes. But I would say that is very unlikely as most players come to understand that this is a business and holding grudges will only cost him more money and opportunity.

I have to poop....thought so of you might be interested

Both of these can and are true: the Phillies have a history of being cheap, AND it would be a mistake to sign Howard to a big contract and have him underperform (like Burrell). Has everyone forgotten about the importance of pitching? There's not much to be gotten this year, but do you want to end up like the Texas Rangers who put all their money in the A-Rod basket and had nothing left over for good pitching in the future?

If Howard is going to feel "disrespected" by last year's offer, before he was even eligible for arbitration, too bad. Don't be naive to ignore that he almost certainly is a pawn in the union/agent's game of salary escalation. The union agreed to this economic system. You don't HAVE to pay a guy big money earlier than his major league experience demands. If Ryan wants to sulk about it, maybe he doesn't fit into the Phils long-term plan. If Howard still didn't have the hole in his swing that leads to so many strike outs last year, this would be a no-brainer. It's still too early to invest big money in him. It's not yet certain that he is better than Pujols, so let's not offer him a bigger contract.

I don't think the Phils are especially cheap - unless you're employing a standard whereby 25 other teams in the Majors are also cheap. And I don't think the organization itself has a bad rep among Major League players either.

I'm a big Ryan Howard fan, but in this case the Phils may be wise to wait a year or two to see how consistent he is with his offense (and defense). One thing's for sure...he's a late bloomer and may fade relatively quick compared to a Pujols or a Wright. Did I see someone quote Bill Conlin? Gimme a break.

I have no problem with Howard going to arbitration every year that he's eligible. Players used to perform for one-year contracts all the time. The Phillies don't need to sign him right now to a deal that eclipses Albert Pujols'. He doesn't have the track record yet.

Howard wasn't a great player most of last year, as he struck out way too much, played lousy defense, and was far too streaky at the plate. I'm sure his agent's biggest issue is that Howard is already 28 and entering his prime years. The Phillies control his rights for a long time, and he may get only one mega-contract during his career. My heart bleeds.

A couple of things to remember:

1) Ed Wade signed the Burrell deal, so it is not worth applying that contract for context because Ed Wade is clinically insane. Houston will be bad for X + 7 years, with "X" representing the year Wade is eventually fired.

2) The Phillies have a reputation for being cheap and/or unwise spending, but they aren't breaking any laws here. It's the system in place and their taking full advantage of it.

3) Howard isn't Pujols, so they should stop asking for that money. Ryan Howard is a great, great player, but he will lose if they draw paralells to Albert Pujols for several reasons.

Howard has only hit better than .290 once while Pujols has never hit less than .314.

Howard has struck out twice as often as he has drawn a walk (once every three at-bats). Pujols has only struck out more than 70 times in a season once (during his rookie season) and at an average of once every nine at-bats over his career.

Howard's fielding percentage and range factors at first base have both been less impressive than Pujols' numbers.

Howard has not hit left-handed pitching well while Pujols consistently hits both right-handed and left-handed pitching.

Howard has not hit with runners in scoring position (.266/.423/.579) nearly as well as Pujols (.344/.467/.670).

Without question, Ryan Howard deserves a big raise to somewhere between $5-8 million for 2008.

But if his agent asks an arbiter to use Pujols as the benchmark, they will lose their arbitration case. Travis Hafner actually makes a more accurate comparison.

I don't want to come off defending an organization that has been to exactly two postseasons out of the last 24 years, but I see it where both sides have logical arguments.

How many times have the Phillies been BURNED after giving long comittments to players without a reliable track record? You can go down the line: Garcia, Eaton, Millwood, Thome, Burrell, Abreu, Leiberthal, Ashby, Daulton, Dykstra, Parrish, Von Hayes...? -All overpaid and weighed down the payroll for years.

Anyone remember Bob Hamelin? He was the guy who beat out Manny Ramirez for AL rookie of the year in 1994. Four years later he was out of baseball. I'm not saying Ryan Howard is going to be a monumental bust, but theoretically, he COULD. MVP or not, it's not an indicator of his future development. He's like a stock that's blowing up and the Phillies are excercising their right to hold until the market regulates itself and a pattern can emerge. Is he going to suddenly develop from a 50-homer guy to an 80-homer guy someday? I'm not exactly going out on a limb to say no, he's not.

If the Phillies gave him a salary of $100 mil over 7 years (as a starting point) and then pitchers around the league suddenly got a book on him, found holes in his swing and turned him into a .250 hitting strikeout machine? The Phillies would be looking like the fools and the WIP culture that currently thinks the Phils are cheap for not signing him would be on their case for being stupid instead.

I don't think the Phillies are giving Howard a raw deal, it's the situation that created it. He was drafted out of college and not high school, starting his development late. Then toiled in the minors while Thome was here, then when he got here he bloomed too quickly and had his career year in his second year. You can't blame him for wanting to cash in, especially knowing that his career was probably shortened 3-5 years because of the situation. He probably feels as if the Phillies need to "give back" those years by treating and signing him to the dollars he would command as a true free agent, right here and now.

But honestly, if given the choice I'd rather have Johan Santana for 7 years/140 million than a slugger who just gets pitched around anyway...

If Howard thinks the Phillies low balled him then that's what he thinks. But one thing that is true is that the Phillies are cheap. They do not have a top 10 payroll. Last year they were 14th, which is way too low. Those numbers are a lot of hocus pocus too because that includes September callups and $7 to Jim Thome. Take those bogus numbers out and the Phillies are probably 20th in payroll.

Maybe in a way it is good that they are cheap. There is little evidence to say they spend money well. I See Red is correct about his litany of overpaid bums. I'll add David Bell and Flash Gordon to that trash pile.

The other issue is that all major league ballplayers are overpaid. But there is a reason for that. MLB franchises are swimming in cash and wouldn't be spending it if they didn't have it.

So Taguchi is overpaid. Nobody wanted him and the Phillies bid against themselves for his services. Jayson Werth is make double what Ryan Howard did last year and he is a marginal major leaguer at best. Chris Snelling is a bum at any price.

So what we're left with is that the Phillies are a bunch of cheap bastards who like to lowball players in the hope the pull up a few minnows out of the creek. Ryan Howard will play for what the arbitration panel will give him. He doesn't have to like it.

Well, Ryan Howard will either make $7 million or $10 million in 2008. Carlos Pena just signed a contract which will average him over $8 million over the next 3 years. In MLB a three person arbitration panel decides upon one number or the other, there is no compromise. However the Phillies and Howard can still strike a deal before the arbitrators make their decision.

So how much do you think Howard will receive this season, $7 million or $10 million?

Howard should make 7 million in 2008. Thats plenty for a guy who set the all time strikeout mark in 2007!