The Zo Zone

Considering last year's track record of injuries to pitchers and the beginning of this year's spring training, isn't it finally time to look at the medical staff and training regime used by the Phillies?

Is it just me that sees this? This is seems way out of the realm of, "bad luck". Show me another team in the past few years that has had similar, "bad luck". Let me know if things worked themselves out or if they changed their medical staff or training staff.

@joey bagadonuts:

It does seem like a lot of bad luck, but as T explained last year, it is mostly just that: bad luck, poor timing and unfortunate circumstances. Yet this explanation can only go so far. Gillick knew that Lidge was damaged goods when get got him. That is why he doesn't want to make it look like he is panicking.

Forget about plan "B". We never had a good plan "A".

I'm not quite buying the bad luck story anymore.
I had a difficult time accepting it last year, Brad Lidge down at spring training after one pitch. Its not bad luck, I'd bet my house on it.

Great reporting Zo and thats sincere.
It's not bad luck its the retread philosphy rearing its ugly head again.
Did Gillick panic over Garcia? Of course he isn't going to panic this team is about and only about per annum finances. What do Lidge and Garcia have in common? Expiring contracts. If they get a good season out of them great if not they are free of the contract the following year. If this mgmt was intelligent they would have kept Bourn and threw one of the young guns in that slot. Period. I only say this b/c they weren't going to spend the money to bring YOU a winner anyway.

I'll let you guys bash me for stating the truth.

It's time to sign Kyle Lohse, move Myers back to the bullpen and then if Lidge gets healthy, the Phillies will have the best bullpen in the National League. Imagine a bullpen of Myers, Lidge, Gordon, Madson, and Romero. That could overcome a rotation of Hamels, Lohse, Moyer, Kendrick and Benson/Eaton.

So one year contracts are bad, such as Garcia and Lidge. Long(er) term contracts are bad such as Eaton and Burrell. So what kind of contracts are good? What kind of contracts are a sure sign that management is intelligent? I'd like to know the truth.

Management had to negotiate with another team in the Lidge deal. Negotiation involves both sides getting what they want.

I think they do want to bring ME a winner. Thats what all their advertising says. Are you telling me advertising isn't the truth?

The number of players, particularly pitchers, with boo boos, continue to mount. I have a distinct lack of confidence in our medical staff, including Michael Ciccotti and his group, as well as trainer Scott Sheridan and his group.

Garcia, Madson, Hamels, Gordon, Myers, Eaton, Lidge and so on. This is more than bad luck,

Can we overcome this, well we have, but can we continue to have other guys step up when injuries occur? This is not a particularly good way to begin a season.

Joe, good healthy players ar emore important than the length of the contract. The Phillies do not understand this...

This is not just bad luck. When you constantly bottom feed for bargains this is what you wind up with. The Phillies don't go out and acquire quality players, they go out a get players nobody wants so they can get them cheap.

Garcia on a 1 year, $10 million contract was perceived as "cheap" by the Phillies. As Gillick has said, he is less concerned about the years than the annual salary. Nobody except the Phillies wanted Garcia, so we got him cheap. We know what that story was.

Nobody wanted Adam Eaton, so the Phillies bid against themselves in signing him for considerably less than Gill Meche. Eaton 3 years, $25 million, Meche 5 years, $55 million. In other words, cheap.

Brad Lidge is cheap at $6 million for 1 year. Teams were very hesitant about him because of his head and his knee. Gillick got him cheap.

Chad Durbin? Cheap.

So Taguchi? Cheap.

Chris Snelling? Dirt Cheap

T.J. Bohn? Dirt Cheap

Travis Blackley? Dirt Cheap

Lincoln Holdzkum? Dirt Cheap

Kris Benson? Peanuts. Is he going to be healthy enough to pitch this year?

These kinds of things are more likely to happen when your primary goal is being cheap.

Who is the last talented free agent the Phillies negotiated with?

Who is the last talented player the Phillies tried to trade for?

Nick, they went after Lowell, which I think was a bad move, they offered him more than he took from Boston. They also went after Schilling.
I don't think we need to go into that one. The point is, they do go after some higher priced, "winners" that didn't appear to be damaged and cheap. Your list of cheap players is a good one though, you make a good point. Although, Taguchi, Romero and Lohse all worked out pretty well. W

e've all had the argument already that going after higher dollar guys doesn't guarantee anything except a higher payroll. Remeber Zito and Schmidt. There are plenty of others too.

Well, there wasn't much else out there in terms of pitching this year (besides Santana and they weren't going to get him), so Lidge may be cheap, but he was also a decent option, considering what's out there. Every pitcher is a gamble, some more than others. What we got out of the deal is a number 2 starter in moving Myers back to the rotation, and there weren't any other #2 quality pitchers on the FA market this year. Some will say Myers isn't a proven #2, but if you put him on the FA market, that's where he would project, and he would command high dollars.

The Phillies payroll is $100 mil, its not cheap. If you look at every team's roster, and pick out all of the utility players and bullpen hopefuls, you will find CHEAP players on every team. Would you feel much better if every player on our team made $10 mil? Would that make you feel better about our chances?

Last "talented" FA they negotiated with, as far as we know, Mike Lowell.

Last "talented" player they tried to trade for? Well they generally don't talk about players they discuss trades for that they don't get, so we can't be sure.

Joey,

The Phillies didn't actually "negotiate" with Mike Lowell. They threw an offer at him that he rejected. We can speculate as to his reasoning.

The Phillies didn't actually "negotiate" with Alfonse Soriano. They offered him 4 years, $60 million when he actually got 8 years, $144 million. That was just for show.

The point is they don't go after the best players and the best pitchers have no desire to come to homerun happy Citizens Bank Park.

The Phillies desparately need to develop a steady surplus of quality minor league players who cannot only plug gaps but also be available to trade. Right now they don't have quite the correct formula.

I hate to say this but Pat Gillick is pretty much like Lee Thomas in trying to fill positions with utility players. Thomas however didn't have Utley, Howard, and Rollins as a core.

Can you say "Danny Tartabull"? Big 1 year contract in the late 90's.

First game of the year, fouled a ball off his toe. I think he got 6 or 7 at bats and then went ont he disabled list for the entire year.

How does Philly management find these people? At least Tartabull was healthy when they signed him. That's more than I can say for Lidge.

Here is a post from a blog called The Disabled List Informer. I read this blog regularly, and the guy is pretty good.

http://disabledlist.blogspot.com/2008/02/lidge-set-for-surgery-on-same-knee.html

one thing i will never understand. When teams trade or sign pitchers who have a recent history of health problems - why don't owners insist upon mri's? this way they'll have more of an idea what's going on inside pitcher's bodies. they always point out that they have to pass a physical. what exactly does that mean? doesn't seem like it's enough checking when the owners throw millions around (ahem, 10mil garcia and lights out lidge) and seemingly do less checking than we do when we buy a used car. am i missing something here?

I think this is actually bad luck unless Lidge has been feeling twinges in his repaired knee and didn't tell anyone. Surely he's been doing streching exercises in the team workouts. If that is true, It's his fault not the teams'. Getting Lidge was a good gamble. Without a good closer you can't compete and although Meyers was pretty good as a closer I think he's better as a starter.

Lidge will be back. Hopefully this won't prevent or hinder the Phils from getting off to a good start. They REALLY need that this year. You can't expect them to win more than 60% every September.

Evidently the Phillies have a post neo-modern philosophy of player medical examination. No one actually requires a team to examine a player before they are acquired except ..... the disability insurance company. The Phillies, like all major league teams, take out disability insurance policies on their players in the event of injury. When a player is disabled for more than 30 days the team is reimbursed a pro-rated portion of that player's salary.

This has two ramifications for the Phillies. First them team actually cares less, much less evidently, whether the player can play, but rather be insured. Second, rather minor injuries become more prolonged injuries so that the team will collect a portion of their salary back. How else can you explain the rather blatant disregard for health when it was evident that Gordon, Garcia, Lidge, Benson, and perhaps Eaton were injured from the start?

Although the Phillies want you to know that they spent $101,000,000 in salaries last year, they do not want you to know that they recouped between $20-$30 million in disability insurance on Garcia, Lieber, Gordon, Myers, Hamels, and Madson...and others.

It still boils down to a fundamentally cheap philosophy of player acquisition.

Someone who knows for sure and isn't just speculating should post about insurance dollars the Phillies may or may not recoup from injuries.

To suggest the Phillies disregard health and are happy to collect insurance rather than have healthy players strikes me as pure Negadelphia mythology.

When you post, check your facts first, you don't help anyone by throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Well thats some interesting information.

So our Phillies are an excellent business model of how to run a profitable MLB franchise. The flaws with that philosophy are;

1 You can spend much, much less than 101 mil and get even better results financially. Why pump up the payroll to 101 mil just to get an even return in insurance?

2 If its a good business model, wouldn't other teams be following it too?

I agree that just being competetive could be a goal of the Phillies in order to maximize profits. But signing injured players to get an even return on insurance doesn't fit into that philosophy.

Gee-It took a Brad Lidge injury for people to understand the Phundemental Phlaws with this organization. Too bad it didn't happen before all of YOU increased their ticket presales by 100k over last year....
I tried to warn YOU about this franchise and its retread philosophy. It can not be shaded or colored as YOU see fit. They are still the same ownership that sold YOU "were a small market team".
Great post by jrquixote. I was unaware of this insurance repayment scheme. Unfortunately, it makes perfect sense. No wonder they are so amped about the 100 mil (whoops I mean 70mil) payroll....
Come on, by another 100k presales.

Truth - I love how you say "YOU" as if you're not a Phillies fan and don't go to any games.

The insurance thing is not a scheme - all teams would insure their players, so its just business.

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Blackley has a split contract? Doesn't he have to stay on the roster to be kept, or do the Phils know his former team won't take him back??

The Phillies have no more cash. Its left to these losers in the front office to create a vision of a strong competitive posture to sell tickets. This is why they suck every year. They didn't beat anyone but the mets last year. If Lohse hadn't beat the Braves twice in September, Atlanta would have won the division. Lidge may take the mound eventually, but he will be hurting and surely not pumping high 90s heat which is his primary weapon. Meyers just hung in as a closer let alone a starter. He is not emotionally cut out for that job. I'm sure when Benson sneaks up on 90mph, he won't be feeling any added pressure facing Teshera or Delgado, he'll be in cruise control right? All these moves are just to sell hot dogs and tape mesures.

What would you people have done this offseason, instead of what Gillick did? Trade for Santana? There are about 8 reasons why that would not have ever happened. Then what? What pitcher would you have thrown millions at? Kyle Lohse for 5 years and $55 mil? Yeah, we wouldn't regret that by, say, June. No pitcher is going to want to come to Philly, because of the park and what they hear about us,the fans (not to say we aren't the best fans in baseball- see September and the ridiculous status these players will receive when they win the World Series). So what is the magic deal that Pat Gillick could have pulled off this winter? I still have a ton of confidence for this year- it is a long year, we still have over 7 months till the playoffs start. Relax everyone, we improved about as much as we could, without banking so much of the future, and remember- WE ARE THE DEFENDING NATIONAL LEAGUE EAST CHAMPS. That means everyone has to come through US. I say bring 'em on, we'll be ready.

Ultimately the Phillies have an incoherent philosophy of running the organization. You simply can't be cheap at every turn. For instance, the Phillies are notorious for not signing the best player available when it is their turn to draft because they don't want to pay big bonus money. I would submit to you that it is much wiser in the long run to select the best player available rather than the cheapest player available because the signing bonus is always going to be millions cheaper than signing a free agent.

Another issue is the Ruben Amaro ploy of identifying players who have been disabled for a couple of years and then picking them up on the cheap like Jayson Werth, T.J. Bohn, Chris Snelling and others.

Yet another issue is overpaying for the bottom feeding players like So Taguchi. Overpaying untalented players drives up the cost of players more than overpaying stars. At least you know who the stars are.

The voodoo over the Phillies $101 million payroll in 2007 is not so difficult to comprehend. They had a lot of injuries, you all know that. They had to replace those players on the roster. That means salaries were going out for two players for the same roster spot. They recouped a significant portion of that money through disability insurance reimbursement, that's why all major league teams insure themselves against disability. I suggest to you that the sheer amount of the disability reimbursement was so significant it allowed them to put on additional players in September, which also drove up that $101 million number.

It is not a successful business model and that's why other teams do not do it. Players are acquired because they can play and contribute not just for window dressing. I am open to others explanation of how the Phillies medical staff can miss so many significant injuries among pitchers. Bad doctors, bad trainers, or bad luck?

When you are cheap you think cheap and act cheap. The Phillies are content on taking chances on medical liabilities because of the insurance money they can collect. This is one of the reasons why the team has won exactly one championship in nearly 130 years. That kind of futility does also not occur by chance. It is through methodical incompetence.

A parable...

A few years ago I was going to furnish my house. So I spent some money on a few good, solid, high-quality sofas and chairs. But I needed more. And I didn't want to spend more. So I went out and hit the stores again, only this time I don't bother with the fancy showroom. I head to the basement and ask about any broken pieces that might be available at a discount. It was OK if they'd been patched up; heck the guys at the store said they were good as new. So I get a whole truckload of these discount items, enough to fill up my house. Only one problem. When sitting down, I frequently found myself falling flat on my ass.

Note to self: 1- Always sit in chairs before buying. 2- Avoid buying fixer-uppers for key spots in the house.

Hola Chicos y Chicas...

Y'all should be aware that the Phillies quite likely have staffers not only monitoring the Zo Zone but providing misinformation and disinformation in order to keep fan's eyes off the ball. Perhaps Ruben "Little Ed" Amaro, Jr. is among those attempting to discredit fans. I only say that because "The Total Package" as Little Ed is known in some circles obviously has no role in spring training other than helping pull practical jokes and other hijinks. I suggest to you that some of Junior's biggest hijinks are occurring on these blogs.

Hasta luego.

First off, as a response to previous posts, a teams ability to insure it's players has DRAMATICALLY changed over the last 8 or so seasons. Teams aren't able to insure players like they used to. Just ask Peter Angelos. As soon as he cashed in on Albert Belle's huge contract (they , the Orioles, paid only about 25%) the insurance market dried up considerably. Brett Myers, Ryan Madson, Tom Gordon, Ryan Howard, ect, I'm almost positive would aboslutely NOT be insured.

It's absolutely absurd to believe that this club is not better than the one that finished 2007. Feliz, Jenkins, and Victorino, will undoubtedly produce considerably more than Helms/Dobbs, Rowand, and Werth. I say Werth because of the 2 months of Victorino not playing. This team is going to score an unbelievable amount of runs.

There's no way the pitching will be worse. None. We won't be running Durbin, Happ, that guy from Toronto that made a 1 1/3 inning start, out there every five days. We won despite all of this. Yeah, the Mets choked. Granted. But had we not played hard, and stayed focused, the Mets still would have won.

Relax everyone, Jimmy said we'll win 100. And, it's not like he hasn't been right in the past.

Let's give Mike Arbuckle a round of applause for the previous post. It is true that if you sign a player to an 8 year contract, that insurors will not pay out all 8 years. However for expiring and year to year contracts there is a market.

More of the Phillies disinformation. They should stick to shaving cream pies.

Now that I am reading all this, I wonder if the Phillies aversion to long term contracts is that they cannot insure themselves for the length of the contract. It's like insuring themselves against their own incompetence.

Interesting ............

Stop the Presses! Surgery on Lidge was Successful the Phillies announced.

What was the announcement after his last surgery on October 1st? Did they announce it was unsuccessful?

You never hear a hucksterer crying "Rotten Fish".

Yeah, after missing Spring Training, I'm sure he'll be ready opening day. Get you tickest they're on sale today.

Yankees had same kind of injury crisis last year and fired the strength and conditioning coach.
I don't know but when I played a "contact-Div.I-sport" in college (not so long ago), we were on a program and the kids that did not do what they were supposed to (esp. the "stupid, annoying drills" that seemed to have done nothing to make them stronger) invariably went down with bad injuries (back problems, hamstrings, shoulders etc.). When I was really good about following the regime, I never got injured. When I let myself take time off before pre-season I tweaked both hip flexors, and a hamstring. Maybe I was due, because I was injury free for 5 years prior, but I still think these guys need to do EVERYTHING as prescribed by people who know better. They are pro athletes - not doing the right things its like stock broker buying stock without researching it.
Bottom line if players are 100% compliant with programs set, and still getting injured they either don't have good programs (replace the S&C coach) or it really is bad luck (this is Philly). Moyer is old and going strong, ditto Glavine (he says its his program that let him play this long).
Will be interesting who goes down next. Will chiropractor help Cole? Time will tell.
Some people (*cough* Hamels) just don't have bodies that can sustain this kind of stress, and get freak accidents. Some are old. Some are weak due to injury.
Lidge came with an injury and is new to Phils, so he's a moot point on S&C of Phillies. Besides, his arm was really strong supposedly.

As a side note, A-Rod (I know, save your comments)had a program specifically for range of motion, accessory muscles + stretching (all on top of strength in general) since he was 17, and he never had a major injury...naturally, Boras takes the credit there. Its true I read it in an interview with him.