The Zo Zone

I love the headline! Maybe the Philies can have a "Vote For Pedro" T-shirt giveaway this summer.

The Phillies DO have the best infield in baseball. This is the first time they can say this since they signed Pete Rose in 1979 to join Manny Trillo, Larry Bowa, and Mike Schmidt. It is a great time to be a Phillies fan!

http://philliesphorum.mlblogs.com

Thanks,
Bill

This is the problem with the mentality of our front offices:

Amaro says "fairly low" chance to get Loshe.

But when one baseball man who had spoken with Mets GM Omar Minaya was asked if the club could end up with both Santana and Lohse, the reply was: "Absolutely."

Open up the checkbook and sign Loshe now.

What the GMs say to the press can be ignored.
It's not in their best interest to be honest. It can only hurt their negotiating stance.

If Adam Eaton gets 3/24, Lohse deserves 3/27 or 3/30. He pitched well here, sign him.

They are to cheap to pay the guy for a full season.
They will find another Lohse(expiring contract) at the trade deadline for half a season.

The Phillies do not care about their fans.

Just because Eaton is paid as much as he is doesn't mean he's worth it. Maybe they've learned from their first mistake.

Do you really want Lohse for 3 yrs/27 mil? Since when is Lohse the savior of the pitching staff? He could very well be the '08 version of Eaton. Then we have 2 stiffs we can't get rid of and grossly overpay. He had a decent couple of months last year, that's it, otherwise he has a below .500 career win percentage.

Truth - why aren't you quoting your friend Bill Conlin today? Oh, that's right, it would rebut everything you've said the last 2 days.

Timmy, Conlin was right on Ryan. He is right on the Mets. I never said the Mets were a great team, I never said that. I just think they will find a way to win 90 gms this year. I think the Phillies win 85-88. If the Phillies spent a little more money, they would easily be 100 visctory team for years to come. If they kept Rowand let Victorino play scat-outfielder/late inning replacement for Burrell. If they signed a mid tier pitcher, no. 3 pitcher put Eaton in the pen as a long relief guy they woulda been tough. Instead they settle for the same 85-88 victories...

Please stop with the "Phils don't have the minor league prospects" excuse. It's tired and weak and untrue. The Mets obtaining Santana for 2 decent draftees and 2 unproven Latino players should now put this "theory" to rest.

Since Losch is still unsigned, doesn't look like anyone thinks he's worth what he's asking. He turns into another Eaton,you'll be the first guys blasting the front office. Better chance of that then him turing into another Myers...or even Kendrick. What do you guys see that makes him worth 9-10 million a year?

Eaton in long relief? Based on what?

Brett Myers Career Stats Your no. 2 pitcher has a high victory total of 13.
His career totals 59-47 4.24 ERA
Brett Myers is a no. 3 pitcher.

Pitching
Year Team G GS W L SV CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB K ERA WHIP BAA
2002 PHI 12 12 4 5 0 1 0 72.0 73 38 34 11 29 34 4.25 1.42 .277

2003 PHI 32 32 14 9 0 1 1 193.0 205 99 95 20 76 143 4.43 1.46 .272

2004 PHI 32 31 11 11 0 1 1 176.0 196 113 108 31 62 116 5.52 1.47 .281

2005 PHI 34 34 13 8 0 2 0 215.1 193 94 89 31 68 208 3.72 1.21 .237

2006 PHI 31 31 12 7 0 1 0 198.0 194 93 86 29 63 189 3.91 1.30 .257

2007 PHI 51 3 5 7 21 0 0 68.2 61 33 33 9 27 83 4.33 1.28 .234

Career 192 143 59 47 21 6 2 923.0 922 470 445 131 325 773 4.34 1.35 .260

Truth - your quote from a previous post:

"The Mets win the division going away....."

That is much different than "they will find a way to win 90 games...." and the Phillies will "settle for the same 85-88 victories"

Brian,

If you're such an expert, what prospects DO the Phillies have that are valuable? By any scouts views I've read, the only quality prospect in the system is Carrasco. Carlos Gomez and Guerro are each valued higher than Carrasco. And Mulvey is probably viewed in the same light. The only possible way the Phillies could have traded for Santana was to give up Utley or Hamels. Same with getting Bedard.

By no means was the Mets package for Santana a great one--but it far outweights anything the Phillies could have offered.

And did you miss the part of Todd's post where he says Santana wasn't interested in coming to Phillies? What do you want this team to do? Re-building a team doesn't happen overnight.

Truth, Rowand signed a terrible contract, those things sink teams. It was widely panned by scouts front office types. He will be a corner OF with little power in 2 years. He's a great guy, plays hard, and is a leader, but $12 mil for a declining of is insane. And if you want to be captian critical, please tell us where the Phils find these miracle players you are clamoring for? ie #2 starter, relievers, etc. Phils payroll will be over $100 mil after the arbitration figures come in.

And Brian, do some research. On espn.com, Keith Law lists his top 100 prospects, 3 of the guys from the Mets deal ranked above the lone Phils prospect on that list, Carrasco who was in the mid 90's. Phils minor league system is in the bottom third of the league.

I should say re-building a farm system doesn't happen overnight.

My mistake, it wasnt Laws list, it was another one. Law had Gomez and Guerra on the list, and only Carrasco from the Phils. However, the consensus is the Phils have one of the leanest systems in the league. alot of their prpospects are still in A ball or below.

Call me crazy (I know this is not what anyone on here wants to hear) but:

Last five years of Adam Eaton:

9-12, 4.08
11-14, 5.61
11-5, 4.27
7-4, 5.12
10-10, 6.29

Last five years of Kyle Lohse:

14-11, 4.61
9-13, 5.34
9-13, 4.18
5-10, 6.12
9-12, 4.63

I don't see a tremendous difference in their track record. Yes, Eaton was awful last year, but Lohse was equally as awful the year before. I think Eaton has just as good a chance of having the better year this year.

Don't misinterpret this as a vote of confidence in Eaton...just a lack of optimism in Lohse.

Why not go with Carlos? Look, the past may be the future. Roberts and Simmons were young guys put into the chaos and the Phils benefited. Remember, the staff back then was two old guys and a nut like Meyers. Other teams take a chance on their one pitching phenom, why not us? And if Eaton cannot pitch that one relief inning et al, trade him for any prospect plus Helms to the Pirates for Matt Mor. as a pundit suggested recently. If the Pirates still want them, of course. I would rather go with a rook than another sore armed older guy.

"If you're such an expert, what prospects DO the Phillies have that are valuable?"

Never claimed to be an expert Timmy. The point is that the Phils minor league system is not deep, but the same thing was said of the Mets system over the last few weeks, and their GM was creative and got it done. I don't need to be an expert that's what we have Mr. Gillick for isn't it Tim? Also, I never said that I wanted the Phils to trade for Santana, but when you win the division the expectation is that you'll make the moves necessary to put you over the top and that hasn't happened. Tim and Grizzled, aren't you tired of being apologists for this terrible ownership group?

great post Brian-you get it!

"you'll make the moves necessary to put you over the top and that hasn't happened". Brian and his buddy Truth.

Ok, so what would you have done, being Pat Gillick and staying at the 105 million mark for budget? And please be specific, names, players, cost.

We'll wait...

Brian - I never said anything about you being an expert - in fact I never even commented on your post. Although regardless if you think the farm system is deep enough to make that kind of trade, the report has been that Santana did not want to come here, and they weren't willing to make a 6 year, $20 mil/year commitment. So its a moot point.

I am not an apologist for this ownership group, not by any means. I have had plenty of complaints about how they handled this team for many years, but I don't see the reason to complain about every single move made or not made, especially when this team is poised to make a run at another division title. Are there moves they could have made differently, I'm sure there are. But they did offer Lowell the best deal, and it was turned down. And as far as pitching, there is/was next to nothing out there. And the team has improved from last year - which was a good year.

Bri-Bri,

I don't know who you're listening to that has ever compared the current state of the Phillies farm system to the Mets. Compared to the Dodgers, Red Sox, and Yankees the Mets system isn't deep, but no one's is. The Phillies farm talent is in the bottom third of the league; Mets were probably top 5-6 (10 at least).

I don't see the point in constantly complaining about ownership when they ARE spending money and Gillick seems to know what he's doing. The farm system has been terrible for 15 years; it'll take time to replenish. When it does, then you can use those assets to build a 100-win team. For now, they're still even-money contenders for the playoffs.

If you're going to complain about the lack of moves Gillick's making, give us some examples of what you want them to do? The Lidge trade was already one of the 5 biggest moves made this offseason. It amazes me how everyone sees that the Phils wasted money on Eaton and then want to repeat that by signing Lohse or Silva or Rowand to huge contracts.

Brian and Truth love being miserable, so much so that they continually post about it.

Phils system is bare for a few reasons, some are just bad picks, or unwillingness to pay over the slotted bonus. But two other reasons are 1) they lost some picks due to free agent signings like bell and Thome and traded prospects for Garcia, Wagner, Milton, etc. How quickly you forget those non cheap moves" 2) they've called up alot of players like umm Rollins, Utley, Howard, Hamels, Myers, Kendrick, Ruiz, Madson. How many other teams have produced that level of homegrown talent?

LOHSE IS NOT THAT GOOD!!!

The Phillies have the BEST offense in the NL, and one of the top 3 overall in Baseball.

With the rotation of Hamels - Myers - Moyer - Kendrick - Eaton/Durbin I see this team winning 90+ games now that we have a BETTER team than we did last year..

Santana helps the Mets 1 of every 5 games.
The average #1 starter will get 33/35 starts.

Santana could easily go 20-13
That's 7 games above .500

Myers moving back to the rotation should go at least 15-10

Basically, the move matches the Phillies yet we get a better closer overall than we had all of last year.

Phillies still the cream of the crop!

Hey, have we forgotten about Eric Milton and Kevin Millwood? These two past-their-prime pitchers may be available. Certainly Lohse is not the answer.

and Frankly... I believe the Phillies are still in the hunt for Lohse and/or Benson.

You can't have too many pitchers!

We thought we were aces last year having Garcia coming off a 17 game winning season... he won 1 game for us for $10 million.. Thanks!

Eaton, as terrible as his ERA, he still went 10-10 didn't he???

I'd take a high ERA and a winning record over that of a losing record but a decent ERA like Zito or Cain of the Giants.

Score more runs than the other team.. that's the name of the game.

The Phillies do that the best in the entire NL!

lohse helped this ballclub win a pennant,sign him 3 years,27 million,club option for the forth year or 1 million buyout......money well spent and solidifys the starting rotation

All I can say is that New York baseball fans must have very deep pockets.

They are paying a lot of money to watch their teams lose.

After the season,we will be hearing the standard Yankee apology to their fans about how their finish was "unacceptable" and that it won't happen next year.

And,of course,this will become the same scenario for the Mets.

Both teams will have among the highest payrolls in baseball.

need to comment on the constant downgrading of the phillies farm system..i see...utley,rollins,howard,ruiz,hamels,myers,burrell,eaton,madson..all homegrown...add lidge acquired with homegrown talent,add the pitching prospects at double a and a ball...not bad...5 all stars and who knows how many in the phils farm system

look people,Lohse pitched good for us last year and didnt lose a game in eleven starts. I dont think he is worth the money he is asking for, just like Eaton wasnt worth it last year. At least Lohse has a live arm and decent stuff! If the Phils can sign Lohse to a deal similar as say Felizs' or even cheaper, then its a no brainer,do it. Its always good to have insurance and extra pitching. Look at last year, the Phils thought they had enough and they didnt. Sign Lohse and lets get this season started!!!

Good point Steve B. Those two teams spend sooooo much money every year on payroll and what has it got them??? NOTHING!!! All you people bitching that the Phils are cheap are idiots!! IDIOTS!! Sure the Bosox spend alot too, but they do spend wisely. Its how you spend your money and getting the right role players. When the Yanks won, they didnt have all these big free agents,they had a good mix of the right free agents/trades and young guys from the farm system. Its all about spending wisely and getting good role players that can produce. Im not saying the Phils have done that in the past, but I really think Gillick is doing a great job in making it happen in his time here. After all, he did help get The Phils get into the playoffs for the first time in a long,long time.

William--you make a good point. However, the point is that the current state of the system is awful. There are no positional players of note even close to the majors, and the relatively few good young arms aren't close either. Previous posters were criticizing the Phillies for not making moves, but the current farm system does not allow the Phillies to do anything.

Coupled with the sorry class of free agents this offseason, there was little that Gillick could be expected to do. Despite that, he's made a few solid acquisitions.

Apologies to Tim and Grizzle for my crankiness yesterday. Had an awful day yesterday with having to move my dad into a dementia unit and I was angry and worn out. I didn't realize how bad I sounded until someone called me a "hater".
A lot of what you guys said is true. We probably have a 90 win team here and with a couple moves could approach JRolls 100 win prediction. I'd like a guy for the rotation to fill in behind Hamels/Myers since I don't have a lot of confidence in Kendrick being able to do what he did last year. Also another veteran bullpen guy is probably needed. I know that Mike Mussina and Kyle Farnsworth are somewhat on the outs with the Yanks. If the Phils would be willing to take on a good portion of those contracts you might be able to get them for very little in the way of prospects. I know Lohse and Benson's names have been thrown around lately. While they may work also here I'd love to see Mussina for 1 or 2 years. Bottom line we're all Phils fans and will be no matter what happens. Take care guys.