Today, the Citizens Agenda for Philadelphia's Future, the culminating product of the Great Expectations project for this year, was published online at www.greatexpectations07.com.
Also, the first installment of a six-part presentation of the Agenda in the ink-and-paper Inquirer appeared in the Sunday Currents section. During the week, the issue by issue rollout of the Agenda will appear on the local Commentary page, B2.
Every day as the Agenda is unveiled, we'll post an open thread for your comments on the issues covered in that day's print Inquirer. (If you want to comment on other parts of the agenda ahead of their print publication dates, that's fine, too. Go ahead. And don't forget the Citizens Convention to review the Agenda next Sunday at the Convention Center.http://www.greatexpectations07.com/convention)
Today's issues in Currents were Education and Knowledge Economy. They were paired for obvious reasons; together, they speak to the fact that any vibrant region is focused on providing educational opportunity and skill training to its citizens at every point from preschool to post-college. We expect the Education agenda to stir some debate; in the end, we chose not to go with the popular notion that the city should take its schools back fully from the state.
The Knowledge Economy agenda is a call to arms for the region to draw maximum benefit from an underappreciated, underexploited asset of this region: its eds/meds/pharma sector.
We're eager to hear what you have to say, on the blog and Sunday at the Convention Center. We really do plan to revise the document according to citizen input, though we're admittedly unlikely to shift views 180 agrees because of one person's objection. That's the thing about citizen input; it's varied. What one person loves, another hates. In the end, when input is divided and your job is to write the thing, you have to choose one way to go. Which we have. Let the dialogue roll.
-- Chris Satullo

Comments (13)
Keeping smart graduates of local colleges.
First, I fail to see how limiting the supply of smart college grads to those from local colleges makes sense. Is a Harvard grad. really less valuable to Philly than one from Penn? Or one from Temple? Make Philly comparatively attractive to ALL smart recent college grads. How about offering a tax abatement for new college grads similar to the one we have successflly offered for new residential construction? Perhaps 10% of earnings between $30K and $50K, with a carryover if the credit exceeds the income tax due. The credit would be available for the first 5 (or 10 like the residential tax credit) years after graduation.
We might also consider how to lure families seeking the best education possible for their kids. Let's make sure that an education at Masterman is superior even to one in Merion. And perhaps that Central offers more AP and more academic opportunities than Cherry Hill.
We have some great private schools in Philly. How about a tax credit towards tuition in excess of average cost per student for Philly residents? Ideally families would be encouraged to live in Philly and attend Germantown Friends rather than in Moorestown and pay the full cost of attending Moorestown Friends (with no tax credit).
Philly, like many other cities, has plenty of people with low incomes but high needs for services. What is needs is a larger percentage of taxpayers with high incomes, high property values (and high tax payments) and relatively low need for expensive city services.
Posted by Mark Trentacoste | November 25, 2007 10:20 AM
Posted on November 25, 2007 10:20
As the leadership and citizens search for answers for our ailing school system, we must tightly focus on two often overlooked areas: parent responsibility and emotionally-disturbed children.
Watching the daily news stories of crack related crimes in the 80's as I played with my two young children motivated me to change careers and become a teacher. My first seven years were spent in the neatly packaged world of private schools. Wanting to be more "front-line," I moved to charter education and this year began teaching at the District's High School of the Future.
While the district certainly faces management challenges customary in mega-organizations, It is the two previously mentioned issues that disproportionately prevent success in the public school classrooms.
A substantial number of the students come to us from un or under-socialized families, lacking even the most basic skills necessary for positive interaction. These students often have difficulty communicating, many have been physically or sexually abused, engage in physical altercations, lack respect for authority and order, and fail to even comprehend why they are in school; life-long self sustainability. In almost every case, the presence of a positive and loving adult is non-existent. What is often found is a second or third generation person that does not have interest or the capacity to nurture a child. The person that gave birth to the child is sometimes involved, but the title of parent is too often misused.
What to do: When the present adult is disinterested in the development of the student they must be "scheduled in" to the young persons life or face fines; leave his or her home or job to pick up a disruptive student, bill them for property destruction caused by the student, impose fines for excessive absences or lateness, and have weekly conferences with teachers. For the parent that is truly invested in the child but lacking in skills; offer life-skills training. Not the ultra-liberal touchy-feely lectures, the relevant and empowering kind; planning and preparing a budget conscience healthy menu, creating an environmentally friendly home, develop a set bedtime and activity schedule, living with a priority based household spending plan, developing a family strategic plan, and developing scope and sequence for the child's education.
The addition of alternative schools for violent and perpetually disruptive students has been a true asset. But, there is another profile student that is institutionally overlooked or recieves inadequate services; the emotionally disturbed student with greatly reduced capacity to survive in a normal paced classroom. Our public schools have a significant amount of students that were crack babies or born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. They are physiologically incapable of succeeding in an open learning environment without a well structured mechanism for psychological support. too much instruction time is wasted controlling behavior of students that do not have the capability to respond in an appropriate manner.
Just as we have developed alternative behavior schools, we must offer alternative mental health/mental retardation schools. In some instances, a boarding school model would be extremely effective. Every child deserves access to the best education possible and we are not serving all of our students in this light. The original spirit of legislation that mandated mainstreaming challenged students has been mangled to the point where most students are receiving a diluted product.
There are no simple answers to improving our education system, but we must at least look at the task in a micro way to identify ALL of the impediments.
Posted by Charlie Baltimore | November 25, 2007 10:32 AM
Posted on November 25, 2007 10:32
Educating and retaining our young citizens after graduation is the right idea and a worthy initiative, however sole emphasis on academic and professional careers will be either ignored or discourage the vast population of city students who lack the resources or interest in pursuing such a career path. There needs to be a parallel, and equal, emphasis on technical and skilled trades career paths. Sole emphasis on professional careers only reinforces a negative public image of manufacturing and skilled trades, characterized by such phrases as “declining” and “low pay", where in fact they are productive and provide the artisan great self-worth. Consequently, too few potentially highly skilled workers will continue to seriously consider manufacturing careers as a result of the Great Expectations forum. By neglecting this segment of the young population you also reinforce the stigma that Vo-Tech equates to academically disadvantaged individuals. Rather Vo-Tech is a conscious choice to engage in a challenging, creative and physical career. I suggest that alternative and skilled trades careers either be incorporated into the Education portion of the agenda or create and separate agenda item.
jim brennan
Posted by Jim Brennan | November 26, 2007 11:25 AM
Posted on November 26, 2007 11:25
Vocational education needs to be stressed because not all kids are college material. These kids need to understand that getting a job is all that matters and stop thinking all roads lead to college. A kid who isnt college material is likely to drop out anyway and get more frustrated. It's important to have these kids thinking about their futures by 10th grade or so. They also need to be educated about the salaries paid by skilled manufacturing jobs or construction. Furthermore the school district needs to expand its partership with the unions and get more of these minorities into those high paying jobs. Why should Philadelphia companies and the City government pay these high wages when the workers are largely suburban? Someone needs to step up and admit that a City that is 50% nonwhite should have unions that better reflect the population.
As for retaining college grads I saw we offer some time of homeownership assistance. The prices of homes here are much lower than competing cities and that is an advantage for college grads. Offer $5k downpayment assistance if they stay here for 5 years or low interest loans of up to $30k or so to help them with the purchase. Make sure they all know about this program by the time they graduate.
Posted by sheth | November 26, 2007 12:09 PM
Posted on November 26, 2007 12:09
I endorse the idea that we have "more forums where researchers, entrepreneurs, corporate leaders and financiers can rub elbows and trade ideas,"
BlogPhiladelphia, held last July, is an excellent example of how a networking forum can stimulate creativity, merely by linking people who worked near each other but had never met. More than five months later, I still hear comments from people that express the connections they made there: "I didn't know him until BlogPhiladelphia, but since then we've been working together on [insert great project here]," or "I had heard of her through friends for years, but we never met until then."
Imagine if we had similar forums on dozens of other topics, bringing strength to strength and creating connections where none existed before.
Breakthroughs are a social act. If we expect a breakthrough for Philadelphia, we need to be talking together, sharing our vision, sharing our ideas, taking action.
If we expect a breakthrough, Philadelphians ALSO needs to be connecting to people outside of Philadelphia, so that we are competing on the world stage. If we just stay in Philadelphia and talk only to Philadelphians, then we're just creating a slightly larger island for ourselves.
Posted by Oliver Picher | November 26, 2007 9:41 PM
Posted on November 26, 2007 21:41
In much of the literature that I have been reading on education in the city the emphasis has been with "fixing" the current K-12 system or making sure our citizens graduate college. I agree that those are great needs.
But I would like to begin a dialogue about the adults who are currently out there who are unemployed or underemployed. Education is important for them as well.
Many of these adults do not have high school diplomas or GEDs. Without these credentials adults can't get into college or have the opportunity to develop work foundation skills to perform in the workplace. How can we get some of these adults to the bottom rung of the career ladder or how do we support these adults in transitioning into college?
You can invest in job training programs but if the adult can not read and do math at a 7th grade level then they will not succeed in many of those training programs and some adults will be denied access to these training programs because of their low skills.
For our city to revive and thrive then we need to have our adults become better parents, citizens, and workers.
Posted by Diane Inverso | November 26, 2007 11:42 PM
Posted on November 26, 2007 23:42
I am extremely heartened that the first item on the Great Expectations agenda is one that focuses on children, because I truly believe we will not achieve our potential status as a great city until we demonstrate that we are serious about ensuring that all of our children have the opportunity to grow up safe, healthy, loved, connected to families and communities, well-educated and well-rounded.
So while I am thrilled that this first installment focuses on children, I am at the same time disappointed that the only agenda item that focuses on children stays fixed on education. Education is critical, no question about it. It is also one of the primary public opportunities to demonstrate our collective/corporate care for, concern about and commitment to our city's children. .
But we also need to recognize that creating a city that is GREAT for children and where children "grow up great" requires a full-court press. We must focus on how every city policy, budget decision, investment, and partnership will ultimately impact the children of the city.
There doesn't seem to be a place here to comment on the overall agenda, but I will throw one such comment in here - one of the best recommendations in the entire agenda, to me, is found in the poverty section, and it is this one:
Stay focused:
Ask this question of every city policy and decision: What does this do to help us reduce the poverty rate?
I absolutely agree with this recommendation and I think it is a fantastic one that should be implemented immediately. But I think we should also add a child impact question such as "What impact will this policy or budget decision have on our city's children?"
IMAGINE - what a great city we could be if we truly, faithfully, honestly asked both of those questions before moving forward with policies and budget decisions?!!!
Now back to commenting more specifically on the Education agenda posted here. First general comment - GREAT WORK - there are lots of terrific ideas here. I think the smaller class size has got to be bumped up to a higher priority, but overall - lots of great ideas.
WHAT'S MISSING? In my view - 4 critical elements which are essential to improving our schools and education system need to be added to this agenda:
(1) Its about relationships Over and over research demonstrates, and interviews with children and former children confirms that the single most important element in a successful education are the relationships the child develops - with teachers, non-teaching adults in the schools, and teacher-parent combos. Therefore, a broad, comprehensive effort to improve school relations with the surrounding community, increase the number of adult mentors and volunteers in the schools, increase teachers' capacity to relate to the students, etc is sorely needed.
(2) Increase arts and creativity - The Arts and Culture section of this agenda includes a recommendation that needs to be reinforced here:
Feed young minds:
Restore arts and music education in the Philadelphia schools to its former glory. These students are the artists and audience of the future. For starters, the district needs to do better at taking advantage of local arts institutions for field trips.
There are so many educational benefits that students derive from having opportunities to develop in the arts and music. The loss to a whole generation of students by removing art and music from the schools is incalculable.
In addition, we need to encourage greater creativity on the part of the teaching and non-teaching staff in the schools so that schools become literally hotbeds of innovation and creativity.
(3) Learning Environments I would be depressed if I had to spend my entire day in some of the buildings and classrooms our children attend for their education. The negative impact of crumbling, gloomy, dark buildings on the morale, behavior and learning for both students and teachers cannot be easily calculated, but it is reasonable to believe that students and staff will be more motivated, inspired and enthused about learning in an environment that is bright, warm, colorful, well-lit and welcoming. And of course safe. But creating a good learning environment goes well beyond the safety recommendations that have already been made.
(4)Learning Differences Virtually no references are made to the needs of special education students in this entire education agenda. And yet, in many instances, the status of our special education system is absymal. If we are to truly improve education for all students, we need to ensure that we are doing our best to identify, assess and support the different learning needs of students with special educational needs. This benefits not only these individual children, but their classmates and teachers as well.
Posted by Sue Badeau | November 28, 2007 4:50 PM
Posted on November 28, 2007 16:50
As we consider the education crisis in our city
schools,we need to remember that thousands of
Phila.children are educated in Catholic schools
many in poor areas. These schools are in danger
of closing their doors,as many have already done
which causes parents, Catholic or not to look to
other schooling alternatives,often outside the
city. If we are interseted in children and in
keeping families in the city, shouldn't there
be some discussion as to the value these schools have and the contribution they have made
to the city and its leadership, many who have
been educated in Catholic elementary schools.A
real dialouge should include all the participants, and Cathoilc schools have been a longtime
supporter of Phila. and their track record
will speak for itself.Are you interested enough to consider them ?
Posted by George B. Moore | November 29, 2007 9:46 AM
Posted on November 29, 2007 09:46
As we consider the education crisis in our city
schools,we need to remember that thousands of
Phila.children are educated in Catholic schools
many in poor areas. These schools are in danger
of closing their doors,as many have already done
which causes parents, Catholic or not to look to
other schooling alternatives,often outside the
city. If we are interseted in children and in
keeping families in the city, shouldn't there
be some discussion as to the value these schools have and the contribution they have made
to the city and its leadership, many who have
been educated in Catholic elementary schools.A
real dialouge should include all the participants, and Cathoilc schools have been a longtime
supporter of Phila. and their track record
will speak for itself.Are you interested enough to consider them ?
Posted by George B. Moore | November 29, 2007 9:46 AM
Posted on November 29, 2007 09:46
As we consider the education crisis in our city
schools,we need to remember that thousands of
Phila.children are educated in Catholic schools
many in poor areas. These schools are in danger
of closing their doors,as many have already done
which causes parents, Catholic or not to look to
other schooling alternatives,often outside the
city. If we are interseted in children and in
keeping families in the city, shouldn't there
be some discussion as to the value these schools have and the contribution they have made
to the city and its leadership, many who have
been educated in Catholic elementary schools.A
real dialouge should include all the participants, and Cathoilc schools have been a longtime
supporter of Phila. and their track record
will speak for itself.Are you interested enough to consider them ?
Posted by George B. Moore | November 29, 2007 9:46 AM
Posted on November 29, 2007 09:46
ENHANCING ECONOMIC PROSPERITY THROUGH LITERACY
Although I am in full agreement with the Education focus as provided to date, what has not been included is adult education, particularly literacy services, and lifting them to a more prominent place among the strategic economic priorities that private and public sector leaders in Philadelphia are addressing, and in so doing, raise the level of respect Philadelphians have for themselves, each other and the environment in which they live.
There are hundreds of thousands of individuals living in Philadelphia where their dignity and self-respect are under siege by unemployment, poverty, poor health, or crime. An estimated 400,000 of them are reading below the 5th grade level. The social costs are simply enormous.
Literacy is among the few solutions that are proven effective in combating major social problems. Teaching an adult to read sets them down a path toward self-sufficiency, enlightenment, and life long learning. It also helps break the cycle of low literacy that plagues families throughout the world. It helps individuals make better decisions regarding their health and their future.
If the cost of maintaining prisons, free health clinics, and unemployment benefits amounts to billions of dollars in Philadelphia, where is the public outcry for more literacy services? How can we hold a school system accountable if we know kids are going home to parents that can’t help them do their homework? If we know corporations are investing millions of dollars in professional development for management positions, how can we expect undereducated, frontline employees to realistically navigate a competitive employment market?
The great economic turn-around that this city needs cannot proceed without a fundamental shift in the way we view under-educated adults.
The Mayor needs to elevate the urgency for making a greater investment in adult education.
Posted by JoAnn Weinberger | December 11, 2007 5:24 PM
Posted on December 11, 2007 17:24
WALKING THE WALK PART ONE: NUTTER’S PROMISE TO CUT THE DISTRICT’S INFLATED CENTRAL ADMINISTRATION
Walking the Walk is a six part series of blogs that I'm submitting to "Great Expectations" to analyze the ways in which Mayor Nutter can implement his plan for public education. With the Philadelphia Federation of Teachers opening contract negotiations with the School District of Philadelphia, now is the time for the mayor to make good on his campaign promises and truly “put children first”. He can do so by working with Sandra Dungee-Glenn and the School Reform Commission to build a contract that will give teachers the resources needed to provide our city’s children with a first rate education.
“As Mayor, I will direct my appointees to the SRC to clarify budget priorities and eliminate administrative costs in order to put money back into the classroom. . . . Some of the ideas that I will explore include: Limiting the role of the School District’s Central Administration to functions that create economies of scale, and directing as many Central Administration personnel as possible back into the schools to serve as teachers or principals.”
--Michael Nutter, Putting Children First
Last month, Allyssa Schmitt, principal of Thomas Mifflin Elementary, resigned because of accusations that she said Muslim children looked like “flying nuns”. Whether or not Schmitt is guilty of discrimination remains the subject of an investigation. However, the interesting part of the story is that during the controversy, district officials said Schmitt was—and I quote the Inquirer—“weighing whether to take a job in the central office or move to another principal’s post.”
It’s curious how a job in the district’s central office happened to pop up just as Allyssa Schmitt planned to step down as principal. It’s also interesting that the school district would pay Schmitt to perform this office job when the budget is so tight to begin with. Couldn’t the district’s money be better spent? Couldn’t we use Schmitt’s proposed “central office” salary to open a new library in a North Philly elementary school, or pay an ESL teacher to help students in West Kensington neighborhoods speak English?
The district is overblown with positions that lure educators (and money) out of the classroom. Think of all the former principals and teachers who now serve as district officers; or regional superintendents; or administrative assistants to regional superintendents; or writers of district curriculum; or administrative assistants to writers of district curriculum; or school growth teachers; or academic coaches. The list goes on and on.
Cassandra W. Jones, Interim Chief Academic Officer of the Philadelphia School District (and former teacher), is a case in point. The Inquirer reported that Jones receives an annual pension of $36,900 in addition to her yearly salary of $231,394. Incredible. And how about Lori Shorr and Sharon Tucker, Mayor Nutter’s “dynamic duo” of education? Although the two women never worked in the classroom, their salaries are still exorbitant. Shorr, as Nutter’s new Chief Education Officer, will be making $115,000 a year, while Tucker, acting as Shorr’s deputy, will be pulling in $95,000; at 30 years old, Sharon Tucker will be making $15,000 more than the highest paid, most experienced teacher in the Philadelphia School District.
This is exactly where Mayor Nutter should start putting children first—by funneling money and resources back into the classroom where they belong. He must sit down with the SRC and tighten the screws. He must follow through with his promise to do an independent audit of the district’s finances, to determine, as he states in Putting Children First, “whether the School District’s funds are being well spent.” He must make the budget more transparent to the city’s tax payers, so we can see exactly how our dollars are being spent. Then, as citizens of Philadelphia, we can give the SRC and the district’s central office a “report card,” just as the press so callously gives our region’s teachers and principals.
If Mayor Nutter truly wants to achieve the goals set forth in Putting Children First, he must set the tone early. He must become an active part of the contract negotiations between the Philadelphia School District and the teacher’s union. He must remind Sandra Dungee-Glenn and the SRC that the district’s recent financial deficit has already resulted in the cutting of badly needed resources—such as libraries, sports programs and other after school activities—and that if money becomes an issue during contract negotiations (which it undoubtedly will), the cuts must be made primarily on the administrative side, away from the classrooms and the teachers who run them.
But I have faith in Mayor Nutter. Which is why—as a dues paying member of the PFT—I voted to endorse him during the 2007 general election. I also have faith in Jerry Jordan, our union president, and the entire Collective Bargaining Team. Our union will stand strong and convey the message to Nutter that he mustn’t become a liability like former Philadelphia mayor John Street and make us work with a sub-standard contract or no contract at all. I have full confidence that PFT President Jerry Jordan and the CB Team will start putting the wheels in motion NOW—in the month of February—to open the lines of communication with Mayor Nutter so he can fulfill the promises he made when we voted to endorse him last fall.
Public education can work in Philadelphia. By cutting the dead wood in the district’s central office, the SRC can free funds to build a new and improved teachers’ contract, and bring about the needed changes to truly put our children’s education first.
***
Christopher Paslay is a school teacher in the Philadelphia School District. His blog, "Chalk and Talk," is at chalk-and-talk.blogspot.com
Posted by Christopher Paslay | February 17, 2008 8:58 AM
Posted on February 17, 2008 08:58
WALKING THE WALK PART TWO: NUTTER'S PROMISE TO REDUCE CONTRACTS WITH OUTSIDE CONTRACTORS
Walking the Walk is a six part series of blogs that I'm submitting to "Great Expectations" to analyze the ways in which Mayor Nutter can implement his plan for public education. With the Philadelphia Federation of Teachers opening contract negotiations with the School District of Philadelphia, now is the time for the mayor to make good on his campaign promises and truly “put children first”. He can do so by working with Sandra Dungee-Glenn and the School Reform Commission to build a contract that will give teachers the resources needed to provide our city’s children with a first rate education.
“As Mayor, I will call for a reduction in contracts with outside contractors unless there is a compelling educational purpose for renewing the contract.”
--Michael Nutter, Putting Children First
Cassandra W. Jones, the Philadelphia School District's interim chief academic officer, recently recommended overhauling 70 of the district’s lowest-performing schools by bringing in outside management. Although EMOs (educational management organizations) such as Edison Schools, Foundations Inc., Victory Schools, Universal Companies, Temple University and University of Pennsylvania have produced mixed results, the district is still considering investing millions of dollars in them.
This is yet another situation where Mayor Nutter can implement his plan for public education and truly “put children first”. He can make good on his campaign promise to “call for a reduction in contracts with outside contractors unless there is a compelling educational purpose for renewing the contract.” Is there “a compelling educational purpose” for contracting out more of our public schools?
According to a story run last year in The Bulletin, the answer would be no: “The RAND Corporation, a national research organization, and Research for Action, a Philadelphia-based non profit organization working in educational research and reform, released a study assessing student achievement here. It concluded in a single italicized sentence, In sum, with four years of data, we find little evidence in terms of academic outcomes that would support the additional resources for the private managers. To put it more simply, the EMOs receive an additional $18 million per year, approximately $768 more per pupil, to run their schools with no measurable difference in test results.”
You would think the conclusions drawn by RAND and Research for Action would be enough for the SRC to pull the plug on EMOs once and for all. Yet, with outside contractors producing no significant academic gains, the district continues to award them lucrative contracts. The question in my mind is WHY? Is the SRC so isolated in their corporate world that they can’t—to use a cliché—see the forest through the trees? Are they too stubborn? Gullible? Naive?
In my opinion, the school district continues to consider EMOs because they do not have a grasp of what is truly wrong with education in the city of Philadelphia. They still fail to see that a student’s HOME ENVIRONMENT means more than the length of the school day, the rigor of the curriculum, the training of the staff. And how have EMOs improved the HOME ENVIRONMENT of their students? How have they stabilized neighborhoods and brought safety into the community? How have they helped non-English speaking parents speak English to help with their child’s homework? How have they solved addiction problems? Employment problems? Anger management problems? How have they stopped the “no-snitch” mentality? How have they made education a priority in every home in Philadelphia?
The answer is, they haven’t! As research shows, these outside contractors can do a lot of shuffling and restructuring of staff, curriculum, and resources (at exorbitant prices), but when the smoke clears, our children aren’t any better off then before; in fact, they are worse off, because we’ve taken money out of the system and wasted it on unwise educational experiments.
It’s insulting to me as a teacher that the school district feels it must bring in outside management to properly educate our children when the problem lies so far outside the classroom. The district needs to take all the money they are spending on EMOs and reinvest it in programs to help struggling parents and neighborhoods gain some stability. They need to take this money and invest it in a LARGER TEACHING STAFF to lower class sizes, and use it to update technology and classroom materials. To give our children a skill and a life purpose.
As Mayor Nutter announced in his education plan outside Samuel Powel School last fall, “We know that contracting out to the education management organizations—the EMOs—are not producing results . . . that are any better then many of our regular public schools. So instead of allowing consultants to profit, we should return some of the consultant money to the classroom.”
Amen. Now let’s hope Mayor Nutter will use his political influence to persuade the school district to stop doing business with outside contractors.
***
Christopher Paslay is a school teacher in the Philadelphia School District. His blog, "Chalk and Talk," is at chalk-and-talk.blogspot.com
Posted by Christopher Paslay | February 24, 2008 9:27 AM
Posted on February 24, 2008 09:27